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But can this be done without abandoning capitalism as a primary driving economic model? It would require a reversal in economic steering (tariffs, government in

by oezi 7y ago

But can this be done without abandoning capitalism as a primary driving economic model? It would require a reversal in economic steering (tariffs, government intervention, etc) of enormous scale. The only thing that has come to matter is the hunt to squeeze every penny, we have forgotten to do anything else.

wbl 7y ago
Tariffs result in domestic industries that can't compete. Germany has an export oriented manufacturing sector that employs lots of people and the US doesn't not because of Chins but because of US management.
- m0zg 7y ago
  Lack of tariffs results in no domestic industries at all.
nostromo 7y ago
Look at farming subsidies as an example. The government funds some percent of our food production by putting in place limited price and production controls for American-produced goods. The hand of the market is not completely removed: producers still want to be as efficient as possible. The cost of food has gone down over time. And inefficient producers still go bankrupt. Is this a good model? I have no idea. It certainly has drawbacks. (Ex: we subsidize too much corn and wheat.) But the US can feed itself without China or OPEC, so that's nice.
- lambdaba 7y ago
  > It certainly has drawbacks. (Ex: we subsidize too much corn and wheat.) Huge drawback right here, corn (high fructose corn syrup, corn itself) and wheat are both at the center of the obesity epidemic and health crisis. It's a point that's often brought up and isn't controversial at this point, but inertia makes it hard to correct, especially with said subsidies.
  - systemvoltage 7y ago
    Let's go to the source of this problem - Corn/Wheat lobbyist paying off lawmakers in DC. This is the root cause of American sell out. It is an awful system that needs to be completely dismantled, criminilized and banned. Please don't tell me about how each special group has the right to lobby... this is an asymmetrical game. As the corn/wheat lobbyists lobby, who is opposing them? No one. And, as their interests are in billions of dollars, it is literally impossible of oppose. I am willing to bet, large number of America's problems can be traced straight to the abhorrently corrupt process of lobbying.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      '... democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...' What's your proposal for how to ban lobbying?
      - systemvoltage 7y ago
        https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ You could vote for him if you're in the US.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - zo1 7y ago
        That quote doesn't paint the full picture. E.g. We haven't tried direct-democracy. Still won't fix peoples' herd-like behavior of following skilled orators, but it should make a serious dent in lobbying.
  - goldenkey 7y ago
    Corn and wheat are damn healthy when consumed raw. Individual trends and desires are the problem, not wheat or corn. Shredded wheat is one of the healthiest foods to eat. So is whole corn.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  My grandmother born around 1900 said what happens when you don't have some government market coordination is damaging boom bust cycles in agriculture. Farmers chasing last years profits tend to over produce, prices crash and farmers go bankrupt. And if you don't keep your poor urban workers fed really bad things happen politically. I think there can be a lot of debate about the mix of subsidies and price controls. But the need I think is there. Food is a critical need as we are about to note. And it's really not the end of the world if things aren't perfectly optimal.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    While corporate farming gets trotted out as the Boogeyman anytime subsidies are discussed, and is indeed an issue, there's still a lot of non-corporate farming. And it's a hard life. You go into debt to buy machinery and raw materials (seed, fertilizer, pesticide) you need to generate competitive yields... Then it doesn't rain. Or it rains too much. Or the weather is too good in Asia, depressing the global price. And all it takes is a few years of the above, and the bank is foreclosing on property that may have been handed down to you through generations of family, How does that make you feel as a person? And even if everything goes right, what does worrying about that constantly do to you? Farm subsidies are a messy business, fraught with peril, but farmers can't just up and move like most of us. So I'm not unsympathetic to the underlying compassionate goal (even if the realization may be perverted). I guess the closest analogy for many would be being a web dev, if browsers decided to randomize their compatibility with all standards every year. And you needed to take out a loan for a laptop and tooling.
systemvoltage 7y ago
I don't have a good answer. First and foremost, the shipping rates for consumer goods from China is outrageously low. People buying from Germany to Australia to USA - $2 shipped PCBs and $4 toys shipped - all have one thing in common: Shipping cost is highly subsized because of this treaty - https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universal-postal-union-treaty https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universa... Specifcally, the problem is the Universal Postal Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union Locally made goods can benefit from some tax breaks and government subsidies as well, but the aforementioned problem needs to be resolved. Alas, it won't be because executives keep lobbying and paying off key decision makers. The whole thing is corrupt. I don't agree with President Trump on majority of things, but I try to not let bias triumph over logic, pragmatism and rational ideas; no matter who is pushing them.
op03 7y ago
This is what will happen to the 1000 bucks that they deposit in all accounts. People don't get the number of systems that will automatically target the most vulnerable/easily exploitable as soon as a deposit shows up, is a much bigger issue than actually handing cash out to people. The "squeeze every penny" mega machine has grown so complex and large its hard to see how it can be dismantled.

by oezi 7y ago

wbl 7y ago

Tariffs result in domestic industries that can't compete. Germany has an export oriented manufacturing sector that employs lots of people and the US doesn't not because of Chins but because of US management.

m0zg 7y ago
Lack of tariffs results in no domestic industries at all.

nostromo 7y ago

Look at farming subsidies as an example. The government funds some percent of our food production by putting in place limited price and production controls for American-produced goods. The hand of the market is not completely removed: producers still want to be as efficient as possible. The cost of food has gone down over time. And inefficient producers still go bankrupt. Is this a good model? I have no idea. It certainly has drawbacks. (Ex: we subsidize too much corn and wheat.) But the US can feed itself without China or OPEC, so that's nice.

lambdaba 7y ago
> It certainly has drawbacks. (Ex: we subsidize too much corn and wheat.) Huge drawback right here, corn (high fructose corn syrup, corn itself) and wheat are both at the center of the obesity epidemic and health crisis. It's a point that's often brought up and isn't controversial at this point, but inertia makes it hard to correct, especially with said subsidies.
- systemvoltage 7y ago
  Let's go to the source of this problem - Corn/Wheat lobbyist paying off lawmakers in DC. This is the root cause of American sell out. It is an awful system that needs to be completely dismantled, criminilized and banned. Please don't tell me about how each special group has the right to lobby... this is an asymmetrical game. As the corn/wheat lobbyists lobby, who is opposing them? No one. And, as their interests are in billions of dollars, it is literally impossible of oppose. I am willing to bet, large number of America's problems can be traced straight to the abhorrently corrupt process of lobbying.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    '... democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...' What's your proposal for how to ban lobbying?
    - systemvoltage 7y ago
      https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ You could vote for him if you're in the US.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - zo1 7y ago
      That quote doesn't paint the full picture. E.g. We haven't tried direct-democracy. Still won't fix peoples' herd-like behavior of following skilled orators, but it should make a serious dent in lobbying.
- goldenkey 7y ago
  Corn and wheat are damn healthy when consumed raw. Individual trends and desires are the problem, not wheat or corn. Shredded wheat is one of the healthiest foods to eat. So is whole corn.
Gibbon1 7y ago
My grandmother born around 1900 said what happens when you don't have some government market coordination is damaging boom bust cycles in agriculture. Farmers chasing last years profits tend to over produce, prices crash and farmers go bankrupt. And if you don't keep your poor urban workers fed really bad things happen politically. I think there can be a lot of debate about the mix of subsidies and price controls. But the need I think is there. Food is a critical need as we are about to note. And it's really not the end of the world if things aren't perfectly optimal.
- ethbro 7y ago
  While corporate farming gets trotted out as the Boogeyman anytime subsidies are discussed, and is indeed an issue, there's still a lot of non-corporate farming. And it's a hard life. You go into debt to buy machinery and raw materials (seed, fertilizer, pesticide) you need to generate competitive yields... Then it doesn't rain. Or it rains too much. Or the weather is too good in Asia, depressing the global price. And all it takes is a few years of the above, and the bank is foreclosing on property that may have been handed down to you through generations of family, How does that make you feel as a person? And even if everything goes right, what does worrying about that constantly do to you? Farm subsidies are a messy business, fraught with peril, but farmers can't just up and move like most of us. So I'm not unsympathetic to the underlying compassionate goal (even if the realization may be perverted). I guess the closest analogy for many would be being a web dev, if browsers decided to randomize their compatibility with all standards every year. And you needed to take out a loan for a laptop and tooling.

systemvoltage 7y ago

I don't have a good answer. First and foremost, the shipping rates for consumer goods from China is outrageously low. People buying from Germany to Australia to USA - $2 shipped PCBs and $4 toys shipped - all have one thing in common: Shipping cost is highly subsized because of this treaty - https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universal-postal-union-treaty https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universa... Specifcally, the problem is the Universal Postal Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union Locally made goods can benefit from some tax breaks and government subsidies as well, but the aforementioned problem needs to be resolved. Alas, it won't be because executives keep lobbying and paying off key decision makers. The whole thing is corrupt. I don't agree with President Trump on majority of things, but I try to not let bias triumph over logic, pragmatism and rational ideas; no matter who is pushing them.

op03 7y ago

This is what will happen to the 1000 bucks that they deposit in all accounts. People don't get the number of systems that will automatically target the most vulnerable/easily exploitable as soon as a deposit shows up, is a much bigger issue than actually handing cash out to people. The "squeeze every penny" mega machine has grown so complex and large its hard to see how it can be dismantled.