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great example of how white collar crime does not get punished. “no more than 30 months” for a theft implicated at multi-billion dollar values. that’s even less

great example of how white collar crime does not get punished. “no more than 30 months” for a theft implicated at multi-billion dollar values. that’s even less with good behavior credit

battery_cowboy 7y ago
I take a different lesson: when a large company is affected, the small guy gets up to 30 months. When a small-time engineer gets his idea stolen by a big company in a similar way, they have zero recourse. To be clear, I think both should be punished, but the large corp stealing ideas NEVER will.
- ehsankia 7y ago
  This wasn't "an idea" being stolen, it was years of work and documents, nearly 10GB of it. That's very different from a big company taking someone's idea and recreating something similar from scratch.
  - earthtourist 7y ago
    Not "stolen" but copied. Google was not deprived of anything whatsoever.
    - x0x0 7y ago
      No, exclusivity of the inventions and knowledge was a -- perhaps the -- key piece of value they held.
      - earthtourist 7y ago
        Claiming that exclusivity is they key value is ludicrous. The key value of autonomous vehicle IP is the ability to autonomously drive vehicles. Unless you're a patent troll. In this case, the IP was never utilized in the marketplace against them, so they suffered no significant amount of damage. It's reasonable that they sued to stop the use of their illegally copied IP. It's reasonable that he's punished. But it should be proportionate to the damage, which was minimal.
        x0x0 7y ago
        That's similarly ludicrous. Autonomous vehicle IP is enormously more valuable if Google is the sole supplier. The value to Google is significantly less if Google plus multiple competitors have it. Your claim basically devolves to no harm, no foul, and that's not how our legal system generally works. The attempted theft was of great value.
        earthtourist 7y ago
        Our legal system does usually involve "proving damages". Obtaining autonomous vehicle IP is not equivalent to having autonomous vehicle product in the market. As an example: Boeing could almost certainly publish all of the IP for the 787 jet and not risk spawning a single legitimate competitor. Very few organizations in the world could do anything with it. What's truly valuable to a Google or Boeing is their financial, engineering, manufacturing, and operations resources. And other less tangible things. Which is why severe punishment for illegally copying IP doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, it should be illegal and should be stopped, but it's not that big a deal in most cases. It just seems like a big deal because "tHey StolE tHe SeCreT cOdEs!" as if it's a James Bond movie. It's a case of confusing the golden goose with the golden eggs.
- MrSandman 7y ago
  To your point. He started the program. Not that there is no fault - it's just ironic - Google mad people are "stealing" from them and they made billions by stealing all our data... In the end Google ended up shutting down its main SDC rival's entire program, recuperating all their money including employee salary, and raising 2.5 billion. Not too shabby
- lambdasquirrel 7y ago
  Well, to nit a point slightly, his comp alone should indicate he was not a small-time engineer. He effectively had a bigger payout that most founders with a semi-successful startup exit. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/03/waymos-uber-lawsuit-reveals-anthony-levandowskis-120m-pay.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/03/waymos-uber-lawsuit-reveals-...
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  Well, I would like to agree with you, but unfortunately only larger companies have the resource and willingness to actually build the necessary infrastructure to prove someone stealing an idea
cjensen 7y ago
Is your complaint that his sentence is too light? Or that non-white collar crime is punished too harshly?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelt 7y ago
  foolfoolz is complaining that the sentence is light compared to non-white-collar crimes For example, if you can get 12 years for shoplifting $40 [1] or life in prison for stealing $153 of video tapes [2] that stands in stark contrast to starting a company with stolen IP and selling it for $680M and getting 2.5 years. Some people see this as part of a pattern where the justice system, run by upper-middle-class types, is unduly lenient on other upper-middle-class types, or unduly harsh on poor people. They would also point to the likes of Brock Turner who had gone to the same college as the judge sentencing him; and controversial presidential pardons [3] of friends and major donors. It's not a completely hard-and-fast pattern, of course; Bernie Madoff got a 150 year sentence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shoplifting-helping-hike-sentences-court https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shop... [2] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol31_2004/winter2004/irr_hr_winter04_shoplifting/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... [3] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/problematic-trump-pardons https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/prob...
  - cjensen 7y ago
    Yes, I get that... but there is an implicit "what should be fixed" attached to the complaint. This white-collar punishment is going to hurt him badly. Is fairness best achieved by hurting him even more? Or is it best achieved by "only" hurting non-white-collar crimes with a punishment similar to this? It's important because the real question here is "are you complaining about his sentence, or the sentence of others?" Personally I'm pro-reform. Would really like to see lighter sentences for a lot of things. So I'm not going to complain about this white-collar sentence at all. I'm going to complain about the harsh sentence for "people not like us."
yoshimato 7y ago
30 months is a major punishment for downloading a doc that tracks technical goals and doing nothing with it.
- throw03172019 7y ago
  It was much more than just a calendar.
  - CoolGuySteve 7y ago
    Not according to the plea. You should try reading the article next time.
    - 0x00000000 7y ago
      Did you read the indictment and do you know what a plea deal is? Why do you think google is lying about the 14000 files he downloaded? That could easily be proven or disproven and everyone knows it. It’s obvious they just threw him a soft ball on probably the least incriminating file they could to just get some money back rather than dragging the trial on forever then sentencing him to 100 years. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t take all the CAD files and act in what is clearly bad faith. Yeah, I could see a 24 year old legitimately doing that “for personal reference” but he is fucking 40 years old
      - CoolGuySteve 7y ago
        I do know what a plea is. Legally, this calendar is the only thing he stole. I understand Google made many claims but apparently the evidence was only strong enough for this one minor article to make through the plea negotiations. Now put yourself in this "fucking 40 year old"'s position and think about what it means for a corporation like Google to make these claims. Even if they're false you can't afford to fight them. The guy was steamrolled.
        joshuamorton 7y ago
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
The lesson if anyone is paying attention that if you’re going to steal $1, better make it a million.... but slow down before you hit Madoff levels. There is a sweet spot north of a million; less than a few billion.
- chishaku 7y ago
  Is there sufficient public data to plot and find the true sweet spot?
  - garrettgrimsley 7y ago
    I'm not sure about seeing a chart of existing cases and illicit proceeds, but what is available is the United States Sentencing Guidelines §2B1.1. [0] The value amounts increase exponentially, while the points, which correspond to length of sentence, increase linearly. So, like the other poster said, go big. Take the base offense level for the crime, add the points in the chart for the dollar amount, and then reference the Sentencing Table in §5A [1]. Levandowski and other folks with no criminal history will be in column 1 of the chart. Keep in mind that this is only a guideline, and the judge is not bound by it. Let me know if you have any other questions! To demonstrate: Insider Trading - Base Offense Level: 8 Monetary Loss | Points Added | Total Points | Total Sentence Length | Dollars/month > $6,500 2 10 6-12 months $812 > $15,000 4 12 10-16 months $1,153 > $40,000 6 14 15-21 months $2,222 ~~~~ > $250,000 12 20 33-41 months $6,756 > $550,000 14 22 41-51 months $11,957 > $1,500,000 16 24 51-63 months $26,315 > $3,500,000 18 26 63-78 months $49,296 > $9,500,000 20 28 78-97 months $109,195 > $25,000,000 22 30 97-121 months $229,358 > $65,000,000 24 32 121-151 months $477,941 >$150,000,000 26 34 151-188 months $887,573 >$250,000,000 28 36 188-235 months $1,182,033 >$550,000,000 30 38 235-293 months $2,083,333 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-chapter-2-c#2b11 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-... https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-chapter-5 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-... Edit: This isn't meant to encourage anyone to commit a crime of any magnitude. Doing that would likely violate the terms of my probation.
bosswipe 7y ago
Two and half years is a hell of a lot of jail time. I seriously wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
- AVTizzle 7y ago
  My worst enemy could use a decade.
- wtvanhest 7y ago
  People have gotten used to ridiculously long sentences, but 2 years in jail would be absolutely terrible. Think of it this way, people are currently SIP and going stir crazy with all the modern stuff.
- tyingq 7y ago
  Pretty sure he's going to Martha Stewart type powder puff federal facility. To be sure, there are many hellholes in the US, but he's not going there.
- Retric 7y ago
  Someone getting 2 years for stealing 100+ million in gold seems unusually short. But, somehow that changes if what they stole fits on a flash drive. It’s interesting that we accept electronic money as real, but IP always feels like a stretch.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Rob a bank for 1/100000th the money and see how many more years than 2 you get
earthtourist 7y ago
The question in criminal cases should be: how many people's lives were hurt by the crime, and how severely? In this case, no one's life was the slightest bit injured. Uber is most likely too incompetent to be a real threat. Waymo has undoubtedly advanced far from the versions of everything that he copied illegally. It won't damage them at all. If anything, the lawsuit and criminal case were probably more damaging to their progress due to the distraction. This is pretty similar to copying software or movies illegally. In almost all cases, there is no injured party. It's simply illegal by virtue of the powerful corporations demanding laws that they can use as a bludgeon. Startups and other small companies don't get any of this "protection", but when someone copies code illegally from Google or Goldman Sachs, the FBI gets involved and makes them pay dearly. Prosecutors use the cases to make their bones. I'm not suggesting that what this guy did was ethically or legally correct, just that it didn't actually harm any human life. It should probably be illegal but the punishment/fines should be capped at a very low level. The laws should primarily be designed to stop someone from continuing to use illegally copied data.
- saghm 7y ago
  > Uber is most likely too incompetent to be a real threat I don't necessarily disagree with all of your comment, but I feel like incompetence should not be a factor in determining punishment severity. Being unprofitable should not be a valid defense for illegal behavior.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - earthtourist 7y ago
    Sure, agreed. The point there is just that copying IP isn't that meaningful if it can't be effectively utilized. Many parties have presumably copied Boeing and Airbus IP related to their jets, and yet none have effectively utilized it. Stealing the golden eggs is not the same as stealing the golden goose.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    It’s like justifying sexual harassment by being bad at sex
sytelus 7y ago
I'm against this barbaric tradition of putting people in cages for whatever XYZ crimes. I think the isolation of the rest of the society from the criminals is essential but should be done in a much more humane way. For instance, prisons should be a place to learn and develop one's mind with libraries, documentaries, education and tools of creation but still making sure the person cannot contact the rest of the society. Prisoners should be making living to pay for such facilities by doing work. You might wonder what if this actually promotes more crimes but you can increase the lengths of sentences and exponentially growing lengths for repeated offenses. A way to think of prison is just another society with its own economy and rules with strict isolation but otherwise similar in most other respects. For example, a "prison town" may have cafes, restaurants, theaters etc with everything being run by this isolated community which is not allowed to be in contact with the rest. I know this is crazy and rather radical ideal but small cages and solitary confinement is inhuman beyond thought.
- saghm 7y ago
  > For example, a "prison town" may have cafes, restaurants, theaters etc with everything being run by this isolated community which is not allowed to be in contact with the rest What happens if someone commits a crime in a prison town? Double secret prison?
  - markdown 7y ago
    No soup for them!
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    No, you send them to solitary confinement, just as they do in prison?
- gowld 7y ago
  Ok but lets start by freeing the poor descendants of slaves before we rush to worry about spoiled elites.

great example of how white collar crime does not get punished. “no more than 30 months” for a theft implicated at multi-billion dollar values. that’s even less with good behavior credit

battery_cowboy 7y ago

I take a different lesson: when a large company is affected, the small guy gets up to 30 months. When a small-time engineer gets his idea stolen by a big company in a similar way, they have zero recourse. To be clear, I think both should be punished, but the large corp stealing ideas NEVER will.

ehsankia 7y ago
This wasn't "an idea" being stolen, it was years of work and documents, nearly 10GB of it. That's very different from a big company taking someone's idea and recreating something similar from scratch.
- earthtourist 7y ago
  Not "stolen" but copied. Google was not deprived of anything whatsoever.
  - x0x0 7y ago
    No, exclusivity of the inventions and knowledge was a -- perhaps the -- key piece of value they held.
    - earthtourist 7y ago
      Claiming that exclusivity is they key value is ludicrous. The key value of autonomous vehicle IP is the ability to autonomously drive vehicles. Unless you're a patent troll. In this case, the IP was never utilized in the marketplace against them, so they suffered no significant amount of damage. It's reasonable that they sued to stop the use of their illegally copied IP. It's reasonable that he's punished. But it should be proportionate to the damage, which was minimal.
      - x0x0 7y ago
        That's similarly ludicrous. Autonomous vehicle IP is enormously more valuable if Google is the sole supplier. The value to Google is significantly less if Google plus multiple competitors have it. Your claim basically devolves to no harm, no foul, and that's not how our legal system generally works. The attempted theft was of great value.
        earthtourist 7y ago
        Our legal system does usually involve "proving damages". Obtaining autonomous vehicle IP is not equivalent to having autonomous vehicle product in the market. As an example: Boeing could almost certainly publish all of the IP for the 787 jet and not risk spawning a single legitimate competitor. Very few organizations in the world could do anything with it. What's truly valuable to a Google or Boeing is their financial, engineering, manufacturing, and operations resources. And other less tangible things. Which is why severe punishment for illegally copying IP doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, it should be illegal and should be stopped, but it's not that big a deal in most cases. It just seems like a big deal because "tHey StolE tHe SeCreT cOdEs!" as if it's a James Bond movie. It's a case of confusing the golden goose with the golden eggs.
MrSandman 7y ago
To your point. He started the program. Not that there is no fault - it's just ironic - Google mad people are "stealing" from them and they made billions by stealing all our data... In the end Google ended up shutting down its main SDC rival's entire program, recuperating all their money including employee salary, and raising 2.5 billion. Not too shabby
lambdasquirrel 7y ago
Well, to nit a point slightly, his comp alone should indicate he was not a small-time engineer. He effectively had a bigger payout that most founders with a semi-successful startup exit. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/03/waymos-uber-lawsuit-reveals-anthony-levandowskis-120m-pay.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/03/waymos-uber-lawsuit-reveals-...
heavenlyblue 7y ago
Well, I would like to agree with you, but unfortunately only larger companies have the resource and willingness to actually build the necessary infrastructure to prove someone stealing an idea

cjensen 7y ago

Is your complaint that his sentence is too light? Or that non-white collar crime is punished too harshly?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
michaelt 7y ago
foolfoolz is complaining that the sentence is light compared to non-white-collar crimes For example, if you can get 12 years for shoplifting $40 [1] or life in prison for stealing $153 of video tapes [2] that stands in stark contrast to starting a company with stolen IP and selling it for $680M and getting 2.5 years. Some people see this as part of a pattern where the justice system, run by upper-middle-class types, is unduly lenient on other upper-middle-class types, or unduly harsh on poor people. They would also point to the likes of Brock Turner who had gone to the same college as the judge sentencing him; and controversial presidential pardons [3] of friends and major donors. It's not a completely hard-and-fast pattern, of course; Bernie Madoff got a 150 year sentence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shoplifting-helping-hike-sentences-court https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shop... [2] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol31_2004/winter2004/irr_hr_winter04_shoplifting/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... [3] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/problematic-trump-pardons https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/prob...
- cjensen 7y ago
  Yes, I get that... but there is an implicit "what should be fixed" attached to the complaint. This white-collar punishment is going to hurt him badly. Is fairness best achieved by hurting him even more? Or is it best achieved by "only" hurting non-white-collar crimes with a punishment similar to this? It's important because the real question here is "are you complaining about his sentence, or the sentence of others?" Personally I'm pro-reform. Would really like to see lighter sentences for a lot of things. So I'm not going to complain about this white-collar sentence at all. I'm going to complain about the harsh sentence for "people not like us."

yoshimato 7y ago

30 months is a major punishment for downloading a doc that tracks technical goals and doing nothing with it.

throw03172019 7y ago
It was much more than just a calendar.
- CoolGuySteve 7y ago
  Not according to the plea. You should try reading the article next time.
  - 0x00000000 7y ago
    Did you read the indictment and do you know what a plea deal is? Why do you think google is lying about the 14000 files he downloaded? That could easily be proven or disproven and everyone knows it. It’s obvious they just threw him a soft ball on probably the least incriminating file they could to just get some money back rather than dragging the trial on forever then sentencing him to 100 years. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t take all the CAD files and act in what is clearly bad faith. Yeah, I could see a 24 year old legitimately doing that “for personal reference” but he is fucking 40 years old
    - CoolGuySteve 7y ago
      I do know what a plea is. Legally, this calendar is the only thing he stole. I understand Google made many claims but apparently the evidence was only strong enough for this one minor article to make through the plea negotiations. Now put yourself in this "fucking 40 year old"'s position and think about what it means for a corporation like Google to make these claims. Even if they're false you can't afford to fight them. The guy was steamrolled.
      - joshuamorton 7y ago

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

The lesson if anyone is paying attention that if you’re going to steal $1, better make it a million.... but slow down before you hit Madoff levels. There is a sweet spot north of a million; less than a few billion.

chishaku 7y ago
Is there sufficient public data to plot and find the true sweet spot?
- garrettgrimsley 7y ago
  I'm not sure about seeing a chart of existing cases and illicit proceeds, but what is available is the United States Sentencing Guidelines §2B1.1. [0] The value amounts increase exponentially, while the points, which correspond to length of sentence, increase linearly. So, like the other poster said, go big. Take the base offense level for the crime, add the points in the chart for the dollar amount, and then reference the Sentencing Table in §5A [1]. Levandowski and other folks with no criminal history will be in column 1 of the chart. Keep in mind that this is only a guideline, and the judge is not bound by it. Let me know if you have any other questions! To demonstrate: Insider Trading - Base Offense Level: 8 Monetary Loss | Points Added | Total Points | Total Sentence Length | Dollars/month > $6,500 2 10 6-12 months $812 > $15,000 4 12 10-16 months $1,153 > $40,000 6 14 15-21 months $2,222 ~~~~ > $250,000 12 20 33-41 months $6,756 > $550,000 14 22 41-51 months $11,957 > $1,500,000 16 24 51-63 months $26,315 > $3,500,000 18 26 63-78 months $49,296 > $9,500,000 20 28 78-97 months $109,195 > $25,000,000 22 30 97-121 months $229,358 > $65,000,000 24 32 121-151 months $477,941 >$150,000,000 26 34 151-188 months $887,573 >$250,000,000 28 36 188-235 months $1,182,033 >$550,000,000 30 38 235-293 months $2,083,333 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-chapter-2-c#2b11 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-... https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-chapter-5 https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual/2018-... Edit: This isn't meant to encourage anyone to commit a crime of any magnitude. Doing that would likely violate the terms of my probation.

bosswipe 7y ago

Two and half years is a hell of a lot of jail time. I seriously wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

AVTizzle 7y ago
My worst enemy could use a decade.
wtvanhest 7y ago
People have gotten used to ridiculously long sentences, but 2 years in jail would be absolutely terrible. Think of it this way, people are currently SIP and going stir crazy with all the modern stuff.
tyingq 7y ago
Pretty sure he's going to Martha Stewart type powder puff federal facility. To be sure, there are many hellholes in the US, but he's not going there.
Retric 7y ago
Someone getting 2 years for stealing 100+ million in gold seems unusually short. But, somehow that changes if what they stole fits on a flash drive. It’s interesting that we accept electronic money as real, but IP always feels like a stretch.
throwaway2048 7y ago
Rob a bank for 1/100000th the money and see how many more years than 2 you get

earthtourist 7y ago

The question in criminal cases should be: how many people's lives were hurt by the crime, and how severely? In this case, no one's life was the slightest bit injured. Uber is most likely too incompetent to be a real threat. Waymo has undoubtedly advanced far from the versions of everything that he copied illegally. It won't damage them at all. If anything, the lawsuit and criminal case were probably more damaging to their progress due to the distraction. This is pretty similar to copying software or movies illegally. In almost all cases, there is no injured party. It's simply illegal by virtue of the powerful corporations demanding laws that they can use as a bludgeon. Startups and other small companies don't get any of this "protection", but when someone copies code illegally from Google or Goldman Sachs, the FBI gets involved and makes them pay dearly. Prosecutors use the cases to make their bones. I'm not suggesting that what this guy did was ethically or legally correct, just that it didn't actually harm any human life. It should probably be illegal but the punishment/fines should be capped at a very low level. The laws should primarily be designed to stop someone from continuing to use illegally copied data.

saghm 7y ago
> Uber is most likely too incompetent to be a real threat I don't necessarily disagree with all of your comment, but I feel like incompetence should not be a factor in determining punishment severity. Being unprofitable should not be a valid defense for illegal behavior.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- earthtourist 7y ago
  Sure, agreed. The point there is just that copying IP isn't that meaningful if it can't be effectively utilized. Many parties have presumably copied Boeing and Airbus IP related to their jets, and yet none have effectively utilized it. Stealing the golden eggs is not the same as stealing the golden goose.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  It’s like justifying sexual harassment by being bad at sex

sytelus 7y ago

I'm against this barbaric tradition of putting people in cages for whatever XYZ crimes. I think the isolation of the rest of the society from the criminals is essential but should be done in a much more humane way. For instance, prisons should be a place to learn and develop one's mind with libraries, documentaries, education and tools of creation but still making sure the person cannot contact the rest of the society. Prisoners should be making living to pay for such facilities by doing work. You might wonder what if this actually promotes more crimes but you can increase the lengths of sentences and exponentially growing lengths for repeated offenses. A way to think of prison is just another society with its own economy and rules with strict isolation but otherwise similar in most other respects. For example, a "prison town" may have cafes, restaurants, theaters etc with everything being run by this isolated community which is not allowed to be in contact with the rest. I know this is crazy and rather radical ideal but small cages and solitary confinement is inhuman beyond thought.

saghm 7y ago
> For example, a "prison town" may have cafes, restaurants, theaters etc with everything being run by this isolated community which is not allowed to be in contact with the rest What happens if someone commits a crime in a prison town? Double secret prison?
- markdown 7y ago
  No soup for them!
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  No, you send them to solitary confinement, just as they do in prison?
gowld 7y ago
Ok but lets start by freeing the poor descendants of slaves before we rush to worry about spoiled elites.