4 ms·

Netflix might have data centers that gets closer, but nothing will ever get as far reaching and close as P2P would. A residential building who are all watching

Netflix might have data centers that gets closer, but nothing will ever get as far reaching and close as P2P would. A residential building who are all watching the same movie would only have to download the movie from building <> internet once. Replicate this system on every level (local network <> building <> city <> country) and you get so much more bandwidth available. Of course there are other considerations and we (humans) haven't worked as much on P2P as centralized systems, so only the future can tell us where the limit is.

paranoidrobot 7y ago
> Netflix might have data centers that gets closer, but nothing will ever get as far reaching and close as P2P would. A residential building who are all watching the same movie would only have to download the movie from building <> internet once. This assumes that residential internet connections act like a larger version of your home LAN. For all the ISPs that I know about in Australia, all of those connections are terminated within the ISPs network in a central location. This is done using PPPoE/IPoA which is handled generally at the state level. Even for HFC networks where the local node is a shared medium, you can't get client-client communications. Perhaps the situation is different for small WISPs, but I can't see it being too different for most people. Happy to learn more if you have examples.
- stephen_g 7y ago
  With the NBN, most providers don’t use PPPoE anymore but instead just plain IP. Every NBN connection goes back to one of 121 Points of Interconnect (PoIs) (which is way too many by the way but was a dumb and misguided decision imposed by the ACCC). At the PoI it gets to the provider through a Network to Network interface (NNI). The provider’s switch that plugs in here is the earliest that a P2P connection could loop back (but only to somebody in the same region, that is, connected to the same PoI), and is also the closest that a Netflix OpenConnect device could be (although it might not be cost effective to rent the rack space there vs. putting it in a data centre in a capital city). A lot depends on the provider, however, on how they have structured their network. Apparently some do tunnel all their connections back from the PoI to a central location even though they don’t have to. But for most, I expect the provider’s backhaul to the PoIs in a state would all go back to the capital city of that state, which would then be interconnected to the neighbouring states capital cities (this is what the ISP I use, Aussie Broadband does at least).
orcasauce 7y ago
I think you are overestimating the capabilities, and potential "savings", of P2P here. For one, OpenConnect already does what you're suggesting at the "city" level since it's sitting in ISP DCs. Second, there are minimal gains in the last mile via P2P, if at all, considering the numerous types of devices streaming. How do you handle TVs that are already memory constrained by the streaming app? Do mobile devices constantly upload and eat up your bandwidth cap? What if you're streaming from a neighbor who turns off their computer? Do you need to refetch data from some distant host? Is that really a better experience? You also run into privacy/security concerns. How do you reconcile hosts that _cannot_ leverage P2P? Do you now need to support a "P2P" mode and legacy/vintage non-P2P mode? This doesn't sound good for the end user.
- Retric 7y ago
  > What if you’re streaming from a neighbor who turns off their computer? The default is to download 100% from a CDN somewhere, and P2P that default to the same behavior can’t be a net negative outside of sub 0.1% extra communication overhead. Don’t want to use your upload bandwidth? That’s fine your simply stuck using the same CDN network that’s currently overloaded. So none of the above are actual issues, a device doesn’t need to stay connected or have the full movie to be useful for P2P. If I start watching some movie while you’re also watching that same movie you can stream whatever is in your buffer to me and that’s a net gain in terms of back haul capacity. I don’t need to depend on anything from you other than what you already sent to me. I can then download from the service bit’s you don’t have and stream them to you.
  - orcasauce 7y ago
    You're grossly oversimplifying the complexity involved with "streaming" a video. Specifically in the context of a service like Disney+ or Netflix. Additionally how do you "find" that content near you? How do you ensure it is available? How do you ensure it is correct? Who owns it? How do you ensure copyright/drm/licenses are respected? What do you do when it disappears? The gains are incredibly slim, if at all, for the engineering challenges it introduces. You also confuse "CDN somewhere" with OpenConnect box literally inside your ISP's DC. It is probably faster to get it this way than it would be to P2P it from your neighbor since, at the end of the day, that P2P traffic _must_ go through your ISP and their ISP. It will not, by definition, peer at the local hub. You are _NOT_ on a local network with your building/neighbors/etc. Your communication routes to your ISP and then out to anywhere else, even if that somewhere else is on the other side of your wall. Even if it was possible. Even if it was slightly faster. Do you really think studio execs are going to be okay with customers hosting/serving their content off their machines? Even _IF_ this was "technically" a good idea, this is a non-starter from the business standpoint.
homero 7y ago
Windows 10 and Xbox do p2p aggressively for games and updates
closeparen 7y ago
1) Can a cable ISP even route traffic between residential customers without schlepping out to a POP? 2) Where does the upload bandwidth limitation live? Because if it's in the cable modem itself or the nearest upstream connection, this doesn't help much. There is probably much more capacity between the OpenConnect and the home than the home and its nextdoor neighbor.
- capableweb 7y ago
  > 1) Can a cable ISP even route traffic between residential customers without schlepping out to a POP? Guess it depends on the ISPs implementation but in my experience, yes, some ISPs let you route traffic between residential customers, granted you've setup your router correctly. > 2) Where does the upload bandwidth limitation live? In my experience, the limitation lived further away than the residential building, as we hit our own equipment's limits before we hit any other limits.

paranoidrobot 7y ago

> Netflix might have data centers that gets closer, but nothing will ever get as far reaching and close as P2P would. A residential building who are all watching the same movie would only have to download the movie from building <> internet once. This assumes that residential internet connections act like a larger version of your home LAN. For all the ISPs that I know about in Australia, all of those connections are terminated within the ISPs network in a central location. This is done using PPPoE/IPoA which is handled generally at the state level. Even for HFC networks where the local node is a shared medium, you can't get client-client communications. Perhaps the situation is different for small WISPs, but I can't see it being too different for most people. Happy to learn more if you have examples.

stephen_g 7y ago
With the NBN, most providers don’t use PPPoE anymore but instead just plain IP. Every NBN connection goes back to one of 121 Points of Interconnect (PoIs) (which is way too many by the way but was a dumb and misguided decision imposed by the ACCC). At the PoI it gets to the provider through a Network to Network interface (NNI). The provider’s switch that plugs in here is the earliest that a P2P connection could loop back (but only to somebody in the same region, that is, connected to the same PoI), and is also the closest that a Netflix OpenConnect device could be (although it might not be cost effective to rent the rack space there vs. putting it in a data centre in a capital city). A lot depends on the provider, however, on how they have structured their network. Apparently some do tunnel all their connections back from the PoI to a central location even though they don’t have to. But for most, I expect the provider’s backhaul to the PoIs in a state would all go back to the capital city of that state, which would then be interconnected to the neighbouring states capital cities (this is what the ISP I use, Aussie Broadband does at least).

orcasauce 7y ago

I think you are overestimating the capabilities, and potential "savings", of P2P here. For one, OpenConnect already does what you're suggesting at the "city" level since it's sitting in ISP DCs. Second, there are minimal gains in the last mile via P2P, if at all, considering the numerous types of devices streaming. How do you handle TVs that are already memory constrained by the streaming app? Do mobile devices constantly upload and eat up your bandwidth cap? What if you're streaming from a neighbor who turns off their computer? Do you need to refetch data from some distant host? Is that really a better experience? You also run into privacy/security concerns. How do you reconcile hosts that _cannot_ leverage P2P? Do you now need to support a "P2P" mode and legacy/vintage non-P2P mode? This doesn't sound good for the end user.

Retric 7y ago
> What if you’re streaming from a neighbor who turns off their computer? The default is to download 100% from a CDN somewhere, and P2P that default to the same behavior can’t be a net negative outside of sub 0.1% extra communication overhead. Don’t want to use your upload bandwidth? That’s fine your simply stuck using the same CDN network that’s currently overloaded. So none of the above are actual issues, a device doesn’t need to stay connected or have the full movie to be useful for P2P. If I start watching some movie while you’re also watching that same movie you can stream whatever is in your buffer to me and that’s a net gain in terms of back haul capacity. I don’t need to depend on anything from you other than what you already sent to me. I can then download from the service bit’s you don’t have and stream them to you.
- orcasauce 7y ago
  You're grossly oversimplifying the complexity involved with "streaming" a video. Specifically in the context of a service like Disney+ or Netflix. Additionally how do you "find" that content near you? How do you ensure it is available? How do you ensure it is correct? Who owns it? How do you ensure copyright/drm/licenses are respected? What do you do when it disappears? The gains are incredibly slim, if at all, for the engineering challenges it introduces. You also confuse "CDN somewhere" with OpenConnect box literally inside your ISP's DC. It is probably faster to get it this way than it would be to P2P it from your neighbor since, at the end of the day, that P2P traffic _must_ go through your ISP and their ISP. It will not, by definition, peer at the local hub. You are _NOT_ on a local network with your building/neighbors/etc. Your communication routes to your ISP and then out to anywhere else, even if that somewhere else is on the other side of your wall. Even if it was possible. Even if it was slightly faster. Do you really think studio execs are going to be okay with customers hosting/serving their content off their machines? Even _IF_ this was "technically" a good idea, this is a non-starter from the business standpoint.

homero 7y ago

Windows 10 and Xbox do p2p aggressively for games and updates

closeparen 7y ago

1) Can a cable ISP even route traffic between residential customers without schlepping out to a POP? 2) Where does the upload bandwidth limitation live? Because if it's in the cable modem itself or the nearest upstream connection, this doesn't help much. There is probably much more capacity between the OpenConnect and the home than the home and its nextdoor neighbor.

capableweb 7y ago
> 1) Can a cable ISP even route traffic between residential customers without schlepping out to a POP? Guess it depends on the ISPs implementation but in my experience, yes, some ISPs let you route traffic between residential customers, granted you've setup your router correctly. > 2) Where does the upload bandwidth limitation live? In my experience, the limitation lived further away than the residential building, as we hit our own equipment's limits before we hit any other limits.