6 ms·

> The video the NYPD kept hidden from the public shows officers removing Jason Serrano from the car, ignoring his warnings that he had just been stitched up af

by jMyles 7y ago

> The video the NYPD kept hidden from the public shows officers removing Jason Serrano from the car, ignoring his warnings that he had just been stitched up after being stabbed in the stomach. The cops decided Serrano's reluctance was an invitation to throw him on the ground and reopen his wound. Once they were done brutalizing Serrano, they decided this might pose less of a problem for them if they came up with something they could bust him for. > As Serrano curls up on the sidewalk, bleeding from his wound, and as more officers and bystanders gather on the scene waiting for an ambulance, Pastran searches Serrano’s jacket. “We gotta find something,” Erickson tells him. [...] Erickson again returns to the car and continues to meticulously search it, while Pastran briefs a supervisor who has arrived on the scene. Erickson then appears to place something in the car’s drink holder, before opening the front seat’s console and a small toiletry box. Erickson then says “I smell a little weed” just as he appears to pick up and move the little bud he seemed to have dropped in the drink holder moments earlier. Erickson then searches the back of the car, and when Pastran approaches, the two exchange a charged look as Erickson tells Pastran “I see nothing. … You know what I mean?” He then returns to search the front seat area for a third time, this time dropping a larger bud in the drink holder and saying, “There’s a little bit of weed.” > That's the end result of the NYPD's internal investigation deciding two years ago that planting evidence was no big deal. The cop went back out on the street with a partner who enabled evidence-planting. Serrano didn't spend two weeks in jail but he did spend five days handcuffed to a hospital bed. He pled guilty to the resisting arrest charge, even though it was a blatantly bogus arrest. As I usually ask in these sorts of threads: what are we going to do about this? Many police officers seem to have just the right combination of poor incentives, mental illness, and power-drunkenness sufficient to result in wanton lying, lawlessness, and victimization. This is not a situation compatible with a society in which thoughtful, calm, mature innovation unto a pursuit of happiness can occur. So what's the plan? How can we approach this with an adult disposition and put an end to this bizarre experiment of giving the state unchecked power?

viburnum 7y ago
The police almost only abuse very poor people. Eliminating poverty with redistribution and active labor market policies would mean fewer targets. Better housing and land use policies would help by allowing people to live in mixed communities rather than concentrating poor people into ghettos. Making policing an easier job would attract less problematic people. Hiring a lot more cops and banning guns would greatly reduce the stress cops are under. The cops in prosperous, egalitarian places are generally pretty chill, so the idea is to recreate those conditions.
- jMyles 7y ago
  > Eliminating poverty with redistribution and active labor market policies would mean fewer targets. I think you'd need to prove the direction of causality here to be convincing. > Making policing an easier job would attract less problematic people. What are "problematic people"? I find this judgment to be very, very troubling. Is it that "problematic people" are becoming police officers? Or that something about the job is causing problematic behaviors in people like you and I? > Hiring a lot more cops and banning guns would greatly reduce the stress cops are under. This seems downright preposterous to me. Guns aren't a significant cause of death for cops. Cars (including their own cars) are a far bigger threat. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest that places where guns are materially banned enjoy less police corruption. Chicago has has some of the most draconian gun laws in the nation for decades and also has a police department indistinguishable from a criminal cartel by most measures. > The cops in prosperous, egalitarian places are generally pretty chill, so the idea is to recreate those conditions. Again, I suspect the causality may run in the other direction.
  - sykick 7y ago
    Making guns illegal will do little if it is not accompanied by getting rid of the existing guns. People are poor judges of risk and it would not surprise me that cops are more fearful of guns than they are of cars even if it ought not be that way. You may be right in the direction of causation that questioned. I look at it this way. Suppose we create a more prosperous, egalitarian society and find out the cops are still jerks. The experiment shows you are correct but at least we'd end up with a better society in other ways. There does not appear to be any harm in performing the experiment.
    - jMyles 7y ago
      I'm suggesting that it's possible that corruption, and particularly unaccountable police forces historically infused with racism, might be among the primary barriers to achieving such a society, and that a plan to directly engage with this problem might be a necessary precondition to any such movement.
grecy 7y ago
I feel sure the vast majority of Police officers are doing upstanding work, so it's a matter of identifying and punishing the bad apples. Once a few have been targeted and made examples of, surely the rest of the bad apples will smarten up, or quit. Without question, these officers should be charged with battery, kidnapping, planting false evidence, unlawful arrest, possession of drugs, etc. etc. Minimum 5 years jail each, maybe 10. It's not like they did any of this by accident. Yes, five to ten years in jail will ruin their lives, and it's important to remember they did it to themselves. We place our trust in them, and they're caught on camera behaving like regular street thugs. This is utterly unacceptable and should be eliminated.
- fossuser 7y ago
  There's some irony in using the phrase 'bad apples' because it comes from the idiom, "one bad apple spoils the barrel" which is about how rotting apples give off ethylene gas that causes other apples around them to rot faster. Corrupt bad actors that can get away with what's described in the article exist in a culture that corrupts everyone else eventually leading to a situation where the only people willing to join or stay are 'bad apples' protected by a culture of other bad apples. When something is this bad you probably need large purges as opposed to firing a couple individuals. I don't think you can do this from within, some serious restructuring or oversight has to happen from elsewhere. I suspect in most organizations of people you have 10% that care about doing the right thing, 10% that will do bad things and 80% that will do either depending on who is around them.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- Boondox543 7y ago
  Additionally - Serrano needs to file suit against NYPD and/or the city; claiming enough damages such that the organization has an incentive to address this internally.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
> what are we going to do about this? Line the cunts up on their knees and shoot them in the back of the head.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
EDIT: Consider this, if you're an upstanding citizen, never had problems with the law. and all the sudden an officer pulls you over, plants evidence, sends you to jail and now your life is ruined forever: no more jobs, no more means to support yourself. This is NOT a minor offense. First of all, drug offenses should never be more than a ticket, perhaps a really expensive ticket for the harder drugs. As for officers, that are blatently planting evidence that puts people in jails. Planting evidence, isn't something you do on accident. It's not something you do because you had a bad day. It's not something that occurs because you made an incorrect split second decision. It's a deliberate offense (planned for days ahead) worse than anything a police officer can do. And it requires the harshest penalty known to man: capital punishment. we need to send a very strong message, that this is under no circumstance acceptable. Personally, i think capital punishment isn't severe enough for this crime. they should also be forced to give up their entire pension and sued into oblivion for their entire networth.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Do you know what capital punishment is? Giving up the pension is a minor problem after that.
  - nkurz 7y ago
    Let my try to restate what Ididntdothis is saying in a self-contained manner in case thorwasdfasdf is unclear. Calling for "capital punishment" means you think the offender should be put to death: literally, the state should take their head. Whether or not this is excessive (most would think so) it seems odd to follow up by saying that they person should also give up their pension and be sued. Could you (thorwasdfasdf) please clarify?
    - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
      I think capital punishment may not be enough to deter the crime fully (at least not for everyone). But, the person may think twice if their pension wasn't around to go to their next of kin. It's not just about punishing this heinous crime, but rather, it's about setting a precedent, and ensuring that there is sufficient deterence to make sure this never ever happens. It's kinda like that time, someone got 20 years, for Swatting someone. It set a precendence that will never be forgotten.
fian 7y ago
A friend became a police officer (in Australia) a couple of years ago at the age of 35. He quite quickly became distrusting of what people say and would adopt a negative analysis of situations. Why? - because for the majority of his shifts he has to deal with people who _are_ lying to him. Lots of domestic violence calls, drug dealers, thefts, reckless driving, people with serious mental illness (danger to themselves and others). The perpetrators inevitably lie and often the victims are not telling the whole truth (to protect themselves from incrimination for something else or to exaggerate what happened). Prior to joining he was a well rounded and very grounded person. As far as i can tell, he hasn't resisted the power-tripping trap but I can see some racial and socioeconomic stereotyping creeping in to his world view. It's sad to see but it shouldn't be surprising that people's jobs strongly shape their world view. Some other examples I've encountered personally: - emergency medical workers strongly against motorcycle riding as they see so many horrific injuries and fatalities from accidents - a child services worker who assumed men interacting with children were pedophiles as her work involved re-homing children who had been abused For the above occupations, the work involved exposes the workers to highly charged/traumatic situations often daily. A good place to start looking for a solution would be how to help these workers regain a balanced view of society.
- candiodari 7y ago
  > For the above occupations, the work involved exposes the workers to highly charged/traumatic situations often daily. A good place to start looking for a solution would be how to help these workers regain a balanced view of society. And clearly, as the GP illustrates, in the cop's case it's at least partially lying by those same cops to fix their own crimes. Or just lying for their own convenience, at the cost of everyone else. Why do you assume it's any different for the child services worker? They have the power to trade kids, for power, money, or just ego - and are also frequently convicted for doing so. Worse than that, many studies point out that the net effect of child services ... is NEGATIVE for children: there is a lot of statistical proof that children would grow up more successfully if child services didn't exist. Even kids with serious problems at home fare better ... without child services. So it's even worse than the police force, which at least prevents worse. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/27/italian-police-arrest-18-for-allegedly-brainwashing-and-selling-children https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/27/italian-police... And why do you assume it's any different for emergency medical worker? In Australia I was blatantly told that I wouldn't get any assistance from an ambulance unless I accepted a morfine injection. That, of course, turned out to be a financial incentive: it allowed them to charge a lot more to insurance. Of course it also prevented treatment (because doctors assumed I had abdominal pain because I was drugged. And, sure enough, I was: by THEM ! Of course that wasn't the cause of the pain, but cause + expected result = just sleep it off and go home. To be hit by terrible pain again the day after. This did not happen once, but THREE times) And to top it off, when it eventually did get correctly diagnosed, 2 weeks later, that morfine DID cause abdominal pain (morfine stops the peristaltic movement. Therefore, if you're on morfine for more than ~12 hours you're in for a very painful bowel movement. If you're on morfine 3 times for 6 hours in a week, it's no different) And again, at least the police force and emergency medical worker help. They cause a lot of collateral damage, but at least it prevents worse. Child services ... causes a lot more damage than they fix. So ESPECIALLY that person should shut the fuck up about how bad society is and take a good long look at themselves.
huntermeyer 7y ago
The plan? Become a prosecutor and go after cops.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Sounds very dangerous, to the health of the prosecutor. Or the very least, for job security. Aren't prosecutors elected?
- Der_Einzige 7y ago
  In another world, I didn't go into CS and instead became an attorney who specialized in exactly that. Police brutality is everywhere It's one of the main things that kept me interested in the legal system.

by jMyles 7y ago

viburnum 7y ago

The police almost only abuse very poor people. Eliminating poverty with redistribution and active labor market policies would mean fewer targets. Better housing and land use policies would help by allowing people to live in mixed communities rather than concentrating poor people into ghettos. Making policing an easier job would attract less problematic people. Hiring a lot more cops and banning guns would greatly reduce the stress cops are under. The cops in prosperous, egalitarian places are generally pretty chill, so the idea is to recreate those conditions.

jMyles 7y ago
> Eliminating poverty with redistribution and active labor market policies would mean fewer targets. I think you'd need to prove the direction of causality here to be convincing. > Making policing an easier job would attract less problematic people. What are "problematic people"? I find this judgment to be very, very troubling. Is it that "problematic people" are becoming police officers? Or that something about the job is causing problematic behaviors in people like you and I? > Hiring a lot more cops and banning guns would greatly reduce the stress cops are under. This seems downright preposterous to me. Guns aren't a significant cause of death for cops. Cars (including their own cars) are a far bigger threat. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest that places where guns are materially banned enjoy less police corruption. Chicago has has some of the most draconian gun laws in the nation for decades and also has a police department indistinguishable from a criminal cartel by most measures. > The cops in prosperous, egalitarian places are generally pretty chill, so the idea is to recreate those conditions. Again, I suspect the causality may run in the other direction.
- sykick 7y ago
  Making guns illegal will do little if it is not accompanied by getting rid of the existing guns. People are poor judges of risk and it would not surprise me that cops are more fearful of guns than they are of cars even if it ought not be that way. You may be right in the direction of causation that questioned. I look at it this way. Suppose we create a more prosperous, egalitarian society and find out the cops are still jerks. The experiment shows you are correct but at least we'd end up with a better society in other ways. There does not appear to be any harm in performing the experiment.
  - jMyles 7y ago
    I'm suggesting that it's possible that corruption, and particularly unaccountable police forces historically infused with racism, might be among the primary barriers to achieving such a society, and that a plan to directly engage with this problem might be a necessary precondition to any such movement.

grecy 7y ago

I feel sure the vast majority of Police officers are doing upstanding work, so it's a matter of identifying and punishing the bad apples. Once a few have been targeted and made examples of, surely the rest of the bad apples will smarten up, or quit. Without question, these officers should be charged with battery, kidnapping, planting false evidence, unlawful arrest, possession of drugs, etc. etc. Minimum 5 years jail each, maybe 10. It's not like they did any of this by accident. Yes, five to ten years in jail will ruin their lives, and it's important to remember they did it to themselves. We place our trust in them, and they're caught on camera behaving like regular street thugs. This is utterly unacceptable and should be eliminated.

fossuser 7y ago
There's some irony in using the phrase 'bad apples' because it comes from the idiom, "one bad apple spoils the barrel" which is about how rotting apples give off ethylene gas that causes other apples around them to rot faster. Corrupt bad actors that can get away with what's described in the article exist in a culture that corrupts everyone else eventually leading to a situation where the only people willing to join or stay are 'bad apples' protected by a culture of other bad apples. When something is this bad you probably need large purges as opposed to firing a couple individuals. I don't think you can do this from within, some serious restructuring or oversight has to happen from elsewhere. I suspect in most organizations of people you have 10% that care about doing the right thing, 10% that will do bad things and 80% that will do either depending on who is around them.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Boondox543 7y ago
Additionally - Serrano needs to file suit against NYPD and/or the city; claiming enough damages such that the organization has an incentive to address this internally.
- anigbrowl 7y ago

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

> what are we going to do about this? Line the cunts up on their knees and shoot them in the back of the head.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

EDIT: Consider this, if you're an upstanding citizen, never had problems with the law. and all the sudden an officer pulls you over, plants evidence, sends you to jail and now your life is ruined forever: no more jobs, no more means to support yourself. This is NOT a minor offense. First of all, drug offenses should never be more than a ticket, perhaps a really expensive ticket for the harder drugs. As for officers, that are blatently planting evidence that puts people in jails. Planting evidence, isn't something you do on accident. It's not something you do because you had a bad day. It's not something that occurs because you made an incorrect split second decision. It's a deliberate offense (planned for days ahead) worse than anything a police officer can do. And it requires the harshest penalty known to man: capital punishment. we need to send a very strong message, that this is under no circumstance acceptable. Personally, i think capital punishment isn't severe enough for this crime. they should also be forced to give up their entire pension and sued into oblivion for their entire networth.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
Do you know what capital punishment is? Giving up the pension is a minor problem after that.
- nkurz 7y ago
  Let my try to restate what Ididntdothis is saying in a self-contained manner in case thorwasdfasdf is unclear. Calling for "capital punishment" means you think the offender should be put to death: literally, the state should take their head. Whether or not this is excessive (most would think so) it seems odd to follow up by saying that they person should also give up their pension and be sued. Could you (thorwasdfasdf) please clarify?
  - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
    I think capital punishment may not be enough to deter the crime fully (at least not for everyone). But, the person may think twice if their pension wasn't around to go to their next of kin. It's not just about punishing this heinous crime, but rather, it's about setting a precedent, and ensuring that there is sufficient deterence to make sure this never ever happens. It's kinda like that time, someone got 20 years, for Swatting someone. It set a precendence that will never be forgotten.

fian 7y ago

A friend became a police officer (in Australia) a couple of years ago at the age of 35. He quite quickly became distrusting of what people say and would adopt a negative analysis of situations. Why? - because for the majority of his shifts he has to deal with people who _are_ lying to him. Lots of domestic violence calls, drug dealers, thefts, reckless driving, people with serious mental illness (danger to themselves and others). The perpetrators inevitably lie and often the victims are not telling the whole truth (to protect themselves from incrimination for something else or to exaggerate what happened). Prior to joining he was a well rounded and very grounded person. As far as i can tell, he hasn't resisted the power-tripping trap but I can see some racial and socioeconomic stereotyping creeping in to his world view. It's sad to see but it shouldn't be surprising that people's jobs strongly shape their world view. Some other examples I've encountered personally: - emergency medical workers strongly against motorcycle riding as they see so many horrific injuries and fatalities from accidents - a child services worker who assumed men interacting with children were pedophiles as her work involved re-homing children who had been abused For the above occupations, the work involved exposes the workers to highly charged/traumatic situations often daily. A good place to start looking for a solution would be how to help these workers regain a balanced view of society.

candiodari 7y ago
> For the above occupations, the work involved exposes the workers to highly charged/traumatic situations often daily. A good place to start looking for a solution would be how to help these workers regain a balanced view of society. And clearly, as the GP illustrates, in the cop's case it's at least partially lying by those same cops to fix their own crimes. Or just lying for their own convenience, at the cost of everyone else. Why do you assume it's any different for the child services worker? They have the power to trade kids, for power, money, or just ego - and are also frequently convicted for doing so. Worse than that, many studies point out that the net effect of child services ... is NEGATIVE for children: there is a lot of statistical proof that children would grow up more successfully if child services didn't exist. Even kids with serious problems at home fare better ... without child services. So it's even worse than the police force, which at least prevents worse. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/27/italian-police-arrest-18-for-allegedly-brainwashing-and-selling-children https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/27/italian-police... And why do you assume it's any different for emergency medical worker? In Australia I was blatantly told that I wouldn't get any assistance from an ambulance unless I accepted a morfine injection. That, of course, turned out to be a financial incentive: it allowed them to charge a lot more to insurance. Of course it also prevented treatment (because doctors assumed I had abdominal pain because I was drugged. And, sure enough, I was: by THEM ! Of course that wasn't the cause of the pain, but cause + expected result = just sleep it off and go home. To be hit by terrible pain again the day after. This did not happen once, but THREE times) And to top it off, when it eventually did get correctly diagnosed, 2 weeks later, that morfine DID cause abdominal pain (morfine stops the peristaltic movement. Therefore, if you're on morfine for more than ~12 hours you're in for a very painful bowel movement. If you're on morfine 3 times for 6 hours in a week, it's no different) And again, at least the police force and emergency medical worker help. They cause a lot of collateral damage, but at least it prevents worse. Child services ... causes a lot more damage than they fix. So ESPECIALLY that person should shut the fuck up about how bad society is and take a good long look at themselves.

huntermeyer 7y ago

The plan? Become a prosecutor and go after cops.

jacobush 7y ago
Sounds very dangerous, to the health of the prosecutor. Or the very least, for job security. Aren't prosecutors elected?
Der_Einzige 7y ago
In another world, I didn't go into CS and instead became an attorney who specialized in exactly that. Police brutality is everywhere It's one of the main things that kept me interested in the legal system.