5 ms·

"If I could have my way, I'd design games that were meant to be played in four to five hours. The games would be of the same scope that I currently design, I'd

"If I could have my way, I'd design games that were meant to be played in four to five hours. The games would be of the same scope that I currently design, I'd just remove the silly time-wasting puzzles and take the player for an intense ride. The experience they would leave with would be much more entertaining and a lot less frustrating. The games would still be challenging, but not at the expense of the players patience." looks at her unfinished copy of Thimbleweed Park (Ron Gilbert et al, 2014) hahaha sure Ron, sure you would

the_af 7y ago
I couldn't go past the first few scenes of Thimbleweed Park either. I think I would have loved it when I was a teenager, but the point-and-click genre is just not for me anymore. (Also, and I know this is heresy, I couldn't finish the much lauded Psychonauts back then either). I think I simply had more patience for this kind of games when I was younger. I'm more willing to give experimental Interactive Fiction a go though. Some real gems there. edit: also, and this is stretching the "adventure" definition, I absolutely loved "The Return of the Obra Dinn" by Papers Please author Lukas Pope. I loved that game. At this point I'll play anything made by Pope, that's how much I trust the guy.
- aequitas 7y ago
  Pope nailed in with Obra Dinn in how he implemented the detective gameplay and story telling. The game had me with several wtf story moments. This is one of those games that I'm reluctant to start playing as I don't want it to end to soon but can't stop playing once I've started it. Also worth watching are these insights into the game design (and a chance to enjoy the soundtrack again) (spoiler warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi6xgdSbMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi6xgdSbMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0qxLrFycrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0qxLrFycrc
- egypturnash 7y ago
  Obra Dinn was SO GOOD, I made pages of notes in a notebook and had a great time. Not sure it really qualifies as an "adventure" though. I finished Psychonauts. Once. I have tried to replay it and I just cannot, there is so much of it and I really do not want to slog through the tutorial area just so I can re-experience the Milkman Conspiracy. Thimbleweed might have been better if I'd played it on the "light" version; the "full" version is mostly "lots of extra 'jokes' about how adventure games were better back in 1993".
  - radnor 7y ago
    You might be interested in watching this speedrunner go through Psychonauts while the entire dev team watches. I found it entertaining and much more fun than trying to play it myself. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsDc1YVxHA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsDc1YVxHA0
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  Yeah, I think adventure games were given a free pass in the 2000's when the narratology vs ludology debate was going on, being automatically labelled as narrative games. There is/was also a very vocal crowd for insane puzzles that drove out regular or casual players to other pastures. Nowadays I either play a game for the dopamine rush (street fighter), the zen like thing (the witness/the talos principle) or the story (Virginia, sea of solitude). Took me a while to realize that stories in classic adventure games were what I really liked, not the puzzles.
  - gentleman11 7y ago
    The witness is a very relaxing game
- wccrawford 7y ago
  I thought Thimbleweed was a little half-baked at first, too, but I stuck with it and ended up liking it. I dunno if I'll ever play it again, but I did end up enjoying it the first time.
- billfruit 7y ago
  How does Thimbleweed Park compare with something like Stardew Valley, where the narrative is almost minimal, rather the gameplay is about understanding and manipulating complex interlocking systems. I find that a much more engaging game design that the point and click adventure games I have seen.
  - indigochill 7y ago
    It's a totally different genre. Stardew Valley is essentially a "farming simulator". There might be one or two secrets I can think of that you can stumble upon, but they aren't essential to the game. There are also character stories you can discover, but they're again not essential to the core of the game. Thimbleweed Park is an explicit tribute to LucasArts point and click adventure games like Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island. It's all about solving silly puzzles with silly characters and some deliberately obscure puzzles for that nostalgic frustration.
    - billfruit 7y ago
      I should have mentioned South Park: Stick of Truth and it's sequel, they are also nicely done and feel very dynamic.
- jerf 7y ago
  "(Also, and I know this is heresy, I couldn't finish the much lauded Psychonauts back then either)" I really loved Psychonauts, but... I've tried several times to replay it and I have a really hard time with it, because even as someone who loved it, the first 5-10 hours is a slog. There's this incredible premise under the game, and if you get to the point they start using it, it's pretty good, but they really frontloaded a whole lot of levels that are basically "Yeah, I mean, sure, this is nominally taking place inside of someone's head and is all like psychic and freaky and psychological & shit but actually it's just a completely standard 3D platformer". And not that great of one. And those levels just go on forever, with hardly any fun elaborations or anything. I tend to get to the lungfish, right where at least the game gets interesting (though I don't think it truly lives up to its premise until the Milkman level, which IIRC is next), and gas out from all the slog. I hope for the sequel they sat down in the early design session and had some serious discussions about what did and did not work in the first game.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Yes, what you describe is exactly what happened to me. I simply couldn't go past those initial hours. It felt like a (cute) platformer to me. Everybody said there was something amazing once deep into the game, but honestly 5+ hours of jumping around was too much for me.
spdionis 7y ago
Reminds me of Life is Strange, which is a really good "adventure game" btw.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Life is Strange is, in a sense, a much better adventure game than Thimbleweed Park (not even talking about the storyline here) simply because there's no stupid puzzle to solve at every corner that defies basic logic - I guess TBP is made this way (to make you feel like you were back in the 80s) but I don't think there is much charm in being stuck just because your mind is not twisted enough.
- pampelondan 7y ago
  Or "The Pillars of the Earth", or "Heaven's Vault"... As adventure games have been maturing, it is increasingly more difficult to pull off an "old-school" kind of adventure puzzle game; and so, the linked advice piece gets even more relevant for game designers who want to land on the better side of the Sturgeon's Law.
- kyuudou 7y ago
  I was pleasantly surprised by this game. I got it on a Steam sale for a great price and thought, why not? One of the best games I've played all decade. In fact I bought the next one in the series, I think "Before the Storm" hoping it would continue the magic but ugh, nope. I stopped playing after the first few iterations it was just so off-key. Appears that another studio took over for that one and boy can you tell.

the_af 7y ago

I couldn't go past the first few scenes of Thimbleweed Park either. I think I would have loved it when I was a teenager, but the point-and-click genre is just not for me anymore. (Also, and I know this is heresy, I couldn't finish the much lauded Psychonauts back then either). I think I simply had more patience for this kind of games when I was younger. I'm more willing to give experimental Interactive Fiction a go though. Some real gems there. edit: also, and this is stretching the "adventure" definition, I absolutely loved "The Return of the Obra Dinn" by Papers Please author Lukas Pope. I loved that game. At this point I'll play anything made by Pope, that's how much I trust the guy.

aequitas 7y ago
Pope nailed in with Obra Dinn in how he implemented the detective gameplay and story telling. The game had me with several wtf story moments. This is one of those games that I'm reluctant to start playing as I don't want it to end to soon but can't stop playing once I've started it. Also worth watching are these insights into the game design (and a chance to enjoy the soundtrack again) (spoiler warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi6xgdSbMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi6xgdSbMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0qxLrFycrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0qxLrFycrc
egypturnash 7y ago
Obra Dinn was SO GOOD, I made pages of notes in a notebook and had a great time. Not sure it really qualifies as an "adventure" though. I finished Psychonauts. Once. I have tried to replay it and I just cannot, there is so much of it and I really do not want to slog through the tutorial area just so I can re-experience the Milkman Conspiracy. Thimbleweed might have been better if I'd played it on the "light" version; the "full" version is mostly "lots of extra 'jokes' about how adventure games were better back in 1993".
- radnor 7y ago
  You might be interested in watching this speedrunner go through Psychonauts while the entire dev team watches. I found it entertaining and much more fun than trying to play it myself. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsDc1YVxHA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsDc1YVxHA0
johnchristopher 7y ago
Yeah, I think adventure games were given a free pass in the 2000's when the narratology vs ludology debate was going on, being automatically labelled as narrative games. There is/was also a very vocal crowd for insane puzzles that drove out regular or casual players to other pastures. Nowadays I either play a game for the dopamine rush (street fighter), the zen like thing (the witness/the talos principle) or the story (Virginia, sea of solitude). Took me a while to realize that stories in classic adventure games were what I really liked, not the puzzles.
- gentleman11 7y ago
  The witness is a very relaxing game
wccrawford 7y ago
I thought Thimbleweed was a little half-baked at first, too, but I stuck with it and ended up liking it. I dunno if I'll ever play it again, but I did end up enjoying it the first time.
billfruit 7y ago
How does Thimbleweed Park compare with something like Stardew Valley, where the narrative is almost minimal, rather the gameplay is about understanding and manipulating complex interlocking systems. I find that a much more engaging game design that the point and click adventure games I have seen.
- indigochill 7y ago
  It's a totally different genre. Stardew Valley is essentially a "farming simulator". There might be one or two secrets I can think of that you can stumble upon, but they aren't essential to the game. There are also character stories you can discover, but they're again not essential to the core of the game. Thimbleweed Park is an explicit tribute to LucasArts point and click adventure games like Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island. It's all about solving silly puzzles with silly characters and some deliberately obscure puzzles for that nostalgic frustration.
  - billfruit 7y ago
    I should have mentioned South Park: Stick of Truth and it's sequel, they are also nicely done and feel very dynamic.
jerf 7y ago
"(Also, and I know this is heresy, I couldn't finish the much lauded Psychonauts back then either)" I really loved Psychonauts, but... I've tried several times to replay it and I have a really hard time with it, because even as someone who loved it, the first 5-10 hours is a slog. There's this incredible premise under the game, and if you get to the point they start using it, it's pretty good, but they really frontloaded a whole lot of levels that are basically "Yeah, I mean, sure, this is nominally taking place inside of someone's head and is all like psychic and freaky and psychological & shit but actually it's just a completely standard 3D platformer". And not that great of one. And those levels just go on forever, with hardly any fun elaborations or anything. I tend to get to the lungfish, right where at least the game gets interesting (though I don't think it truly lives up to its premise until the Milkman level, which IIRC is next), and gas out from all the slog. I hope for the sequel they sat down in the early design session and had some serious discussions about what did and did not work in the first game.
- the_af 7y ago
  Yes, what you describe is exactly what happened to me. I simply couldn't go past those initial hours. It felt like a (cute) platformer to me. Everybody said there was something amazing once deep into the game, but honestly 5+ hours of jumping around was too much for me.

spdionis 7y ago

Reminds me of Life is Strange, which is a really good "adventure game" btw.

ekianjo 7y ago
Life is Strange is, in a sense, a much better adventure game than Thimbleweed Park (not even talking about the storyline here) simply because there's no stupid puzzle to solve at every corner that defies basic logic - I guess TBP is made this way (to make you feel like you were back in the 80s) but I don't think there is much charm in being stuck just because your mind is not twisted enough.
pampelondan 7y ago
Or "The Pillars of the Earth", or "Heaven's Vault"... As adventure games have been maturing, it is increasingly more difficult to pull off an "old-school" kind of adventure puzzle game; and so, the linked advice piece gets even more relevant for game designers who want to land on the better side of the Sturgeon's Law.
kyuudou 7y ago
I was pleasantly surprised by this game. I got it on a Steam sale for a great price and thought, why not? One of the best games I've played all decade. In fact I bought the next one in the series, I think "Before the Storm" hoping it would continue the magic but ugh, nope. I stopped playing after the first few iterations it was just so off-key. Appears that another studio took over for that one and boy can you tell.