4 ms·

>That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and

>That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology?

leereeves 7y ago
> But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_J... 2: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... 3: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-restrictions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-rest...
- bildung 7y ago
  Japans response was profoundly different. This is how airport arrivals were handled in Jan 24 in Japan: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html This is how arrivals in the US were handled a few days ago, this hall practially is a breeding ground for new infections: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.h... My point is NOT Japan good USA bad, I just want to show that there was the option to get a grip on the situation in January. The past is the past, and every present discussion should focus on things that can be done now. The question of how is to blame the most can be answered in a year or so, when things have calmed down.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    What exactly are we supposed to see in those links? I see two photos of people standing close together. Neither group is practicing social distancing. The Japanese are wearing masks (not N95 masks) whose effectiveness is still being debated, but that's about custom, not government response. The photo from America shows a bigger room, but I suspect that's just a choice of photo and Japanese airports had big rooms full of people in January too. Perhaps not, but certainly a photo of a small room doesn't disprove the existence of big rooms.
    - bildung 7y ago
      The important point of the Japanese mask-wearing custom is the reason why they are worn: To protect others from infection. That purpose doesn't need N95 protection. The current US Airport situation was in the news here in Germany, but perhaps not in the US. It breaks with most distancing guidelines. People are much too close to each other (compared to the advised 1-2m distance), and shared the same room (and air) for many hours. What good is that whole measure if you practically guarantee that more infected people will enter the country afterwards? My overall point was related to the dates of both posts. Yes, on paper both Japan and the US implemented similar-sounding measures at about the same time. But one has to look at the actual implementation.
      - leereeves 7y ago
        I wonder if wearing masks is actually an effective custom that might become more popular in the West. But it's not an option right now, there are no face masks available. That's a custom that has to exist before the pandemic starts so people will already have masks.
      - dillonmckay 7y ago
        In the US, they were also sharing pens to complete the photocopied symptom forms, which constituted the ‘screening’.
- simion314 7y ago
  Thank you for the response, I am so confused when people try so hard to shift blame so their favorite tribe avoids any responsability. Like 2 weeks back this people were trying to say that is just like flu and today when this does not work then China is at fault because this is worse then flu and China should have done a better job handling it in internally, and also convincing this skeptics that is worse then flu to also handle it better in their own tribe. I assume that at the point you discover that is worse then flu you need to have more then one data pont, so the virus has spread already - if skeptics won't believe you what can you do? the skeptics were just waiting for more numbers. I am not defending China, just trying to address the blame shifting and maybe convince some people that the next one can originate in their own country and we all need to be better prepared.
barry-cotter 7y ago
Recent experience with SARS meant East Asian countries had procedures in place, took the threat seriously and that the general population did likewise.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I know a few people that were in the far east during the SARS-COV1 outbreak it scared the living shit out them. Those countries including China reacted swiftly and forcibly once they were aware of what they were up against. Meanwhile in the Trump Administration was actively blocking attempts to perform surveillance by public health authorities as recently as Feb 27th.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > the Trump Administration was actively blocking attempts to perform surveillance by public health authorities as recently as Feb 27th. [citation needed]
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      I know your mind is made up but here you go. > State health officials joined Chu in asking the CDC and Food and Drug Administration to waive privacy rules and allow clinical tests in a research lab, citing the threat of significant loss of life. The CDC and FDA said no. "We felt like we were sitting, waiting for the pandemic to emerge," Chu told the Times. "We could help. We couldn't do anything." They held off for a couple of weeks, but on Feb. 25, Chu and her colleagues "began performing coronavirus tests, without government approval," https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-washingtons-coronavirus-outbreak-only-after-defying-federal-regulators https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-...
      - leereeves 7y ago
        Thanks for the link. So federal regulators (not Trump) told researchers not to test samples from a research study without the patients' permission? Seems reasonable to me. They should have gotten permission from the participants instead of asking regulators to waive patient privacy. > as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region. > To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...
bruce_one 7y ago
What is the reasoning for implying that Japan are handling the problem more effectively than others? A friend of mine living in Japan thinks there's a "burying their head in the sand" type mentality going on. They've only performed 32,000 tests (which is 16,484 people); which makes it hard to know exactly how the disease is spreading there. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing/japan-testing-for-coronavirus-at-fraction-of-capacity-idUSKBN2150ZR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-...
- wholien 7y ago
  Heard the same... we will see how it is. Thinking here is Abe/Japan do not want to delay the Olympics, so aren't testing...

leereeves 7y ago

> But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_J... 2: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... 3: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-restrictions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-rest...

bildung 7y ago
Japans response was profoundly different. This is how airport arrivals were handled in Jan 24 in Japan: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html This is how arrivals in the US were handled a few days ago, this hall practially is a breeding ground for new infections: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.h... My point is NOT Japan good USA bad, I just want to show that there was the option to get a grip on the situation in January. The past is the past, and every present discussion should focus on things that can be done now. The question of how is to blame the most can be answered in a year or so, when things have calmed down.
- leereeves 7y ago
  What exactly are we supposed to see in those links? I see two photos of people standing close together. Neither group is practicing social distancing. The Japanese are wearing masks (not N95 masks) whose effectiveness is still being debated, but that's about custom, not government response. The photo from America shows a bigger room, but I suspect that's just a choice of photo and Japanese airports had big rooms full of people in January too. Perhaps not, but certainly a photo of a small room doesn't disprove the existence of big rooms.
  - bildung 7y ago
    The important point of the Japanese mask-wearing custom is the reason why they are worn: To protect others from infection. That purpose doesn't need N95 protection. The current US Airport situation was in the news here in Germany, but perhaps not in the US. It breaks with most distancing guidelines. People are much too close to each other (compared to the advised 1-2m distance), and shared the same room (and air) for many hours. What good is that whole measure if you practically guarantee that more infected people will enter the country afterwards? My overall point was related to the dates of both posts. Yes, on paper both Japan and the US implemented similar-sounding measures at about the same time. But one has to look at the actual implementation.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      I wonder if wearing masks is actually an effective custom that might become more popular in the West. But it's not an option right now, there are no face masks available. That's a custom that has to exist before the pandemic starts so people will already have masks.
    - dillonmckay 7y ago
      In the US, they were also sharing pens to complete the photocopied symptom forms, which constituted the ‘screening’.
simion314 7y ago
Thank you for the response, I am so confused when people try so hard to shift blame so their favorite tribe avoids any responsability. Like 2 weeks back this people were trying to say that is just like flu and today when this does not work then China is at fault because this is worse then flu and China should have done a better job handling it in internally, and also convincing this skeptics that is worse then flu to also handle it better in their own tribe. I assume that at the point you discover that is worse then flu you need to have more then one data pont, so the virus has spread already - if skeptics won't believe you what can you do? the skeptics were just waiting for more numbers. I am not defending China, just trying to address the blame shifting and maybe convince some people that the next one can originate in their own country and we all need to be better prepared.

barry-cotter 7y ago

Recent experience with SARS meant East Asian countries had procedures in place, took the threat seriously and that the general population did likewise.

Gibbon1 7y ago
I know a few people that were in the far east during the SARS-COV1 outbreak it scared the living shit out them. Those countries including China reacted swiftly and forcibly once they were aware of what they were up against. Meanwhile in the Trump Administration was actively blocking attempts to perform surveillance by public health authorities as recently as Feb 27th.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > the Trump Administration was actively blocking attempts to perform surveillance by public health authorities as recently as Feb 27th. [citation needed]
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    I know your mind is made up but here you go. > State health officials joined Chu in asking the CDC and Food and Drug Administration to waive privacy rules and allow clinical tests in a research lab, citing the threat of significant loss of life. The CDC and FDA said no. "We felt like we were sitting, waiting for the pandemic to emerge," Chu told the Times. "We could help. We couldn't do anything." They held off for a couple of weeks, but on Feb. 25, Chu and her colleagues "began performing coronavirus tests, without government approval," https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-washingtons-coronavirus-outbreak-only-after-defying-federal-regulators https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-...
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Thanks for the link. So federal regulators (not Trump) told researchers not to test samples from a research study without the patients' permission? Seems reasonable to me. They should have gotten permission from the participants instead of asking regulators to waive patient privacy. > as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region. > To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...

bruce_one 7y ago

What is the reasoning for implying that Japan are handling the problem more effectively than others? A friend of mine living in Japan thinks there's a "burying their head in the sand" type mentality going on. They've only performed 32,000 tests (which is 16,484 people); which makes it hard to know exactly how the disease is spreading there. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing/japan-testing-for-coronavirus-at-fraction-of-capacity-idUSKBN2150ZR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-...

wholien 7y ago
Heard the same... we will see how it is. Thinking here is Abe/Japan do not want to delay the Olympics, so aren't testing...