7 ms·

Leadership in the US Government wasted a lot of time trying to play down the pandemic [1] as did large (conservative) news organizations [2]. Both are now tryin

by mlb_hn 7y ago

Leadership in the US Government wasted a lot of time trying to play down the pandemic [1] as did large (conservative) news organizations [2]. Both are now trying to blame China, arguably to shift blame from themselves. It didn't need to be that way; South Korea's government action back in January helped them while the US Government's action hindered response [3]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/opinion/trump-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/opinion/trump-coronavirus... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/on-fox-news-suddenly-a-very-different-tune-about-the-coronavirus/2020/03/16/7a7637cc-678f-11ea-9923-57073adce27c_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/on-fox-news-s... [3]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testing-specialrep/special-report-how-korea-trounced-u-s-in-race-to-test-people-for-coronavirus-idUSKBN2153BW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testin...

leereeves 7y ago
Everyone should be blaming China. They jailed the doctor who tried to warn us. They lied to the world. They "issued an order to hospitals, clinics and other healthcare units strictly prohibiting the release of any information about treatment of this new disease."[1] That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. As the famously conservative editorial board of the Washington Post said:[1] > China tried to keep a lid on the coronavirus. It put everyone at risk. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/china-tried-to-keep-a-lid-on-the-coronavirus-it-put-everyone-at-risk/2020/01/29/0f7850ea-42c8-11ea-b503-2b077c436617_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/chin...
- simion314 7y ago
  >That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology?
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_J... 2: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... 3: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-restrictions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-rest...
    - bildung 7y ago
      Japans response was profoundly different. This is how airport arrivals were handled in Jan 24 in Japan: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html This is how arrivals in the US were handled a few days ago, this hall practially is a breeding ground for new infections: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.h... My point is NOT Japan good USA bad, I just want to show that there was the option to get a grip on the situation in January. The past is the past, and every present discussion should focus on things that can be done now. The question of how is to blame the most can be answered in a year or so, when things have calmed down.
      - leereeves 7y ago
        What exactly are we supposed to see in those links? I see two photos of people standing close together. Neither group is practicing social distancing. The Japanese are wearing masks (not N95 masks) whose effectiveness is still being debated, but that's about custom, not government response. The photo from America shows a bigger room, but I suspect that's just a choice of photo and Japanese airports had big rooms full of people in January too. Perhaps not, but certainly a photo of a small room doesn't disprove the existence of big rooms.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Don't both deserve blame? Imagine 2 forest firefighting teams who guard their own section of forest, and don't trust each other. Team B notices a bit of smoke rising out of Forest A, asks them about it, and Team A says "Don't worry, we have it under control". When the reports of fires in the outskirts of Forest B comes, team B is too relaxed about it, claims they have it under control without even going there for a closer look... Surely you'd say both teams are incompetent? One of the government's duties is to protect its citizens. This podcast [1] (from 18:00) says John Bolton axed the National Security Council's pandemic response team, and funding cuts to the CDC reduced their ability to surveil other countries for outbreaks of diseases. That Stupid Angry Moustache Man has managed to get many of us killed after all... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/mar/19/how-donald-trump-changed-course-on-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/mar/19/how-donal... Edit to add: Those NSC/CDC cuts, those teams were there because the previous admins knew it's a dangerous world with many untrustworthy/uncapable actors (e.g. a poor African nation would not be able to tell you exactly how fast Ebola is spreading). It's ridiculous to cut off your own monitoring capabilities, and then to say "I'm not responsible" and blame others when the problem hits you.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Imagine the same scenario, but now Team A and Team B are on opposite sides of the world, and Team A is an authoritarian regime that won't let anyone get near Forest A and won't let anyone talk about Forest A, and instead of a forest fire, the danger is microscopic, invisible to the naked eye and to satellites. Would you still blame Team B for not knowing about the danger immediately?
    - 8note 7y ago
      Japan confirmed it's first case January 15th. what was Trump doing for the past two months? would an extra month's notice have done anything? I get the sense Obama could have told him exactly when it would happen, and he'd have still done nothing until American deaths started ramping up
    - netsharc 7y ago
      I'm not blaming team B for not knowing about it immediately, I'm blaming them for their shrugging response even after it's terribly obvious what's happened. And you seem to say Team B is still utterly blameless, it's all Team A's fault.
- wwweston 7y ago
  This can all be true and it's still worth nothing to talk about this problem as if it we can wash our hands of blame and assign it all to China. The US government is not responsible for the emergence of the epidemic. The US government is definitely responsible for the policy responses in the US that have shaped the course of its emergence here. And we can see that several governments that are not China have handled a threat that emerged outside their borders and about which they presumably had no better access to information about... much better than we have. Maybe there's blame to cast on China, but it's a lot more productive for citizens of each country to hold their own governments to account.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    The NY Times has some great charts showing the number of new cases each day for many nations. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/19/world/coronavirus-flatten-the-curve-countries.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/19/world/coronav... The only countries that appear to have handled it better are South Korea and Japan. If I mixed up the charts for the US and other nations except those and Italy (which is much worse), you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. So when you say: > The US government is definitely responsible for the policy responses in the US that have shaped the course of its emergence here. I wonder what you mean. The shape of its emergence here is exactly like the shape of its emergence in a dozen other countries.
    - agurk 7y ago
      From that NY Times article Denmark has an interesting shaped curve that might cause the casual observer to think it's been brought under control. Denmark were very good at testing widely initially and have subsequently changed the criteria for who gets tested to only be for those presenting with acute symptoms. I haven't been able to find out why they changed but my assumption is limited testing capacity and they're preparing for an increase in the number of cases so want to prioritise. I will be very interested at the end of this to see how Denmark's response is rated, but it does feel like they have been among the better performers globally.
- massysett 7y ago
  Despite all these previous lies, the US press now reports “no new domestic coronavirus cases in China!” as if there is some reason to believe it’s true.
- throw55yu43 7y ago
  > They jailed the doctor who tried to warn us. This is false. They did not jail the doctor.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Thank you for questioning that. Some articles (like [1]) said he was arrested, but the BBC said[2]: > Four days later he was summoned to the Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign a letter. In the letter he was accused of "making false comments" that had "severely disturbed the social order". > "We solemnly warn you: If you keep being stubborn, with such impertinence, and continue this illegal activity, you will be brought to justice - is that understood?" Underneath in Dr Li's handwriting is written: "Yes, I do." I misunderstood. But the point remains the same, just replace "jailed" with "threatened". 1: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-06/coronavirus-china-xi-li-wenliang https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-06/corona... 2: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  Eh, how about we get through this before we start assigning blame. I get that PR is important, but US should focus its energies elsewhere. I just don't see it as productive.
- tsimionescu 7y ago
  I am neither in the US or China. I would note though that blaming other countries is rarely useful, since you have virtually 0 power to influence the decisions of other countries. However, you do have some measure of power to affect the decisions of your own country, so assessing and blaming the response that your own country had is more useful than looking at others. So you can absolutely say that China deceived the world and deserves our ire. But you should also wonder why the WHO chose to believe the famously information-controlling Chinese authorities, why your own government chose to believe China and the WHO playing its game. You can also choose to ask whether your own government, once the reality of what was happening in China got out, had a fast enough and acute enough response. The answer will vary by country and by individual assessing this, but it is far more useful than only blaming China. To give some examples of my own opinions, Taiwan, Japan, and SK are probably examples of governments that did most things right so far. Italy and Iran are examples of governments that have done horribly initially but may be rallying now. The UK and the Netherlands are examples of countries that are not reacting well enough even today. As for my own country, I am mostly satisfied with most of the decisions taken, and their timing, though I am concerned with the amount of testing the government is doing. Based on future data on the actual effectiveness, I may end up blaming my own government, if for example the lack of testing proves fatal, and I can act on that blame by voting them out office when I get the next chance.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    You're right that we can't do much to change the power structure in China, but we can change our own relationship with them.
unishark 7y ago
If you read the entirety of [3], the American CDC's test was produced and approved at roughly the same time in early february as the Korean tests. The problem was a flaw in the test setting the process back, not a lack of government initiative. The remaining lesson in comparing SK and US here seems to be to rely on the private sector and not the govt in a crisis. by the way, on reddit I see people from practically every western country complaining about their government initially downplaying and being slow to react to the virus.

by mlb_hn 7y ago

leereeves 7y ago

Everyone should be blaming China. They jailed the doctor who tried to warn us. They lied to the world. They "issued an order to hospitals, clinics and other healthcare units strictly prohibiting the release of any information about treatment of this new disease."[1] That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. As the famously conservative editorial board of the Washington Post said:[1] > China tried to keep a lid on the coronavirus. It put everyone at risk. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/china-tried-to-keep-a-lid-on-the-coronavirus-it-put-everyone-at-risk/2020/01/29/0f7850ea-42c8-11ea-b503-2b077c436617_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/chin...

simion314 7y ago
>That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology?
- leereeves 7y ago
  > But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_J... 2: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... 3: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-restrictions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/02/us/coronavirus-us-travel-rest...
  - bildung 7y ago
    Japans response was profoundly different. This is how airport arrivals were handled in Jan 24 in Japan: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html This is how arrivals in the US were handled a few days ago, this hall practially is a breeding ground for new infections: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.h... My point is NOT Japan good USA bad, I just want to show that there was the option to get a grip on the situation in January. The past is the past, and every present discussion should focus on things that can be done now. The question of how is to blame the most can be answered in a year or so, when things have calmed down.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      What exactly are we supposed to see in those links? I see two photos of people standing close together. Neither group is practicing social distancing. The Japanese are wearing masks (not N95 masks) whose effectiveness is still being debated, but that's about custom, not government response. The photo from America shows a bigger room, but I suspect that's just a choice of photo and Japanese airports had big rooms full of people in January too. Perhaps not, but certainly a photo of a small room doesn't disprove the existence of big rooms.
netsharc 7y ago
Don't both deserve blame? Imagine 2 forest firefighting teams who guard their own section of forest, and don't trust each other. Team B notices a bit of smoke rising out of Forest A, asks them about it, and Team A says "Don't worry, we have it under control". When the reports of fires in the outskirts of Forest B comes, team B is too relaxed about it, claims they have it under control without even going there for a closer look... Surely you'd say both teams are incompetent? One of the government's duties is to protect its citizens. This podcast [1] (from 18:00) says John Bolton axed the National Security Council's pandemic response team, and funding cuts to the CDC reduced their ability to surveil other countries for outbreaks of diseases. That Stupid Angry Moustache Man has managed to get many of us killed after all... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/mar/19/how-donald-trump-changed-course-on-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/mar/19/how-donal... Edit to add: Those NSC/CDC cuts, those teams were there because the previous admins knew it's a dangerous world with many untrustworthy/uncapable actors (e.g. a poor African nation would not be able to tell you exactly how fast Ebola is spreading). It's ridiculous to cut off your own monitoring capabilities, and then to say "I'm not responsible" and blame others when the problem hits you.
- leereeves 7y ago
  Imagine the same scenario, but now Team A and Team B are on opposite sides of the world, and Team A is an authoritarian regime that won't let anyone get near Forest A and won't let anyone talk about Forest A, and instead of a forest fire, the danger is microscopic, invisible to the naked eye and to satellites. Would you still blame Team B for not knowing about the danger immediately?
  - 8note 7y ago
    Japan confirmed it's first case January 15th. what was Trump doing for the past two months? would an extra month's notice have done anything? I get the sense Obama could have told him exactly when it would happen, and he'd have still done nothing until American deaths started ramping up
  - netsharc 7y ago
    I'm not blaming team B for not knowing about it immediately, I'm blaming them for their shrugging response even after it's terribly obvious what's happened. And you seem to say Team B is still utterly blameless, it's all Team A's fault.
wwweston 7y ago
This can all be true and it's still worth nothing to talk about this problem as if it we can wash our hands of blame and assign it all to China. The US government is not responsible for the emergence of the epidemic. The US government is definitely responsible for the policy responses in the US that have shaped the course of its emergence here. And we can see that several governments that are not China have handled a threat that emerged outside their borders and about which they presumably had no better access to information about... much better than we have. Maybe there's blame to cast on China, but it's a lot more productive for citizens of each country to hold their own governments to account.
- leereeves 7y ago
  The NY Times has some great charts showing the number of new cases each day for many nations. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/19/world/coronavirus-flatten-the-curve-countries.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/19/world/coronav... The only countries that appear to have handled it better are South Korea and Japan. If I mixed up the charts for the US and other nations except those and Italy (which is much worse), you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. So when you say: > The US government is definitely responsible for the policy responses in the US that have shaped the course of its emergence here. I wonder what you mean. The shape of its emergence here is exactly like the shape of its emergence in a dozen other countries.
  - agurk 7y ago
    From that NY Times article Denmark has an interesting shaped curve that might cause the casual observer to think it's been brought under control. Denmark were very good at testing widely initially and have subsequently changed the criteria for who gets tested to only be for those presenting with acute symptoms. I haven't been able to find out why they changed but my assumption is limited testing capacity and they're preparing for an increase in the number of cases so want to prioritise. I will be very interested at the end of this to see how Denmark's response is rated, but it does feel like they have been among the better performers globally.
massysett 7y ago
Despite all these previous lies, the US press now reports “no new domestic coronavirus cases in China!” as if there is some reason to believe it’s true.
throw55yu43 7y ago
> They jailed the doctor who tried to warn us. This is false. They did not jail the doctor.
- leereeves 7y ago
  Thank you for questioning that. Some articles (like [1]) said he was arrested, but the BBC said[2]: > Four days later he was summoned to the Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign a letter. In the letter he was accused of "making false comments" that had "severely disturbed the social order". > "We solemnly warn you: If you keep being stubborn, with such impertinence, and continue this illegal activity, you will be brought to justice - is that understood?" Underneath in Dr Li's handwriting is written: "Yes, I do." I misunderstood. But the point remains the same, just replace "jailed" with "threatened". 1: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-06/coronavirus-china-xi-li-wenliang https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-06/corona... 2: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382
A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
Eh, how about we get through this before we start assigning blame. I get that PR is important, but US should focus its energies elsewhere. I just don't see it as productive.
tsimionescu 7y ago
I am neither in the US or China. I would note though that blaming other countries is rarely useful, since you have virtually 0 power to influence the decisions of other countries. However, you do have some measure of power to affect the decisions of your own country, so assessing and blaming the response that your own country had is more useful than looking at others. So you can absolutely say that China deceived the world and deserves our ire. But you should also wonder why the WHO chose to believe the famously information-controlling Chinese authorities, why your own government chose to believe China and the WHO playing its game. You can also choose to ask whether your own government, once the reality of what was happening in China got out, had a fast enough and acute enough response. The answer will vary by country and by individual assessing this, but it is far more useful than only blaming China. To give some examples of my own opinions, Taiwan, Japan, and SK are probably examples of governments that did most things right so far. Italy and Iran are examples of governments that have done horribly initially but may be rallying now. The UK and the Netherlands are examples of countries that are not reacting well enough even today. As for my own country, I am mostly satisfied with most of the decisions taken, and their timing, though I am concerned with the amount of testing the government is doing. Based on future data on the actual effectiveness, I may end up blaming my own government, if for example the lack of testing proves fatal, and I can act on that blame by voting them out office when I get the next chance.
- leereeves 7y ago
  You're right that we can't do much to change the power structure in China, but we can change our own relationship with them.

unishark 7y ago

If you read the entirety of [3], the American CDC's test was produced and approved at roughly the same time in early february as the Korean tests. The problem was a flaw in the test setting the process back, not a lack of government initiative. The remaining lesson in comparing SK and US here seems to be to rely on the private sector and not the govt in a crisis. by the way, on reddit I see people from practically every western country complaining about their government initially downplaying and being slow to react to the virus.