4 ms·

It was happening long before the WH uttered a word, so if you really want to blame Trump for Chinese propaganda - you are going to have to argue for the concept

by tal8d 7y ago

It was happening long before the WH uttered a word, so if you really want to blame Trump for Chinese propaganda - you are going to have to argue for the concept of preemptive retaliation.

boomboomsubban 7y ago
Or note the fact that members of the government outside the White House have made similar statements for some time now.
- tal8d 7y ago
  While also providing proof that those statements predate China's antics. When China was accusing everyone of fear-mongering, and hints of travel restrictions were met with speeches about the holocaust and hypocritical appeals to the WHO, which US official is to blame for that? I've been watching this thing since December, the USG is pretty much the last one to the party - China's state run media has been saying crazy stuff since day one.
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    >which US official is to blame for that? Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions, and I doubt this is the only reason for those actions, I can understand wanting to downplay something like this while you're in the middle of negotiations to stop a trade war. It's not hard to imagine the US calling for an immediate closing of the borders and shelving of the trade deal.
    - tal8d 7y ago
      > Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions... This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. I'd argue they aren't excusable, even from a completely amoral utilitarian perspective - because nothing they've done even looks rational. Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility, isn't going to improve negotiation prospects - no rational person would think that it could. Threatening to interrupt medical supply chains during a pandemic... I can't think of a better battlecry for those who'd advocate pulling all operations out of China. Forcing workers to return to the factories and claiming that you are back at 85% capacity, when everyone has access to near real time satellite imagery proving that your coal plants aren't running, isn't going to strengthen your negotiation position.
      - boomboomsubban 7y ago
        >This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. Over the past months they have made many good moves, and their conduct after signing the trade deal in early January seems decent. >Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility One member of the foreign department posting things on Twitter is not the actions of the state. Further, that man's post seemed to be made as a reply to the "US accusation" that the virus was unleashed intentionally by the Chinese. I don't understand how you can attack one while repeating the other. And while I don't support forcing workers back to work or misleading economic reports, they're fairly common tactics worldwide.
        tal8d 7y ago
        > ...reply to the "US accusation" that the virus was unleashed intentionally by the Chinese. Oh that is an easy one. That US accusation was actually open speculation by Indian and German researchers examining the only data that China was willing to share with the rest of the world. They weren't accused of intentionally unleashing it, but negligence was speculated - the lying and secrecy is the cause for that, and they have only themselves to blame. China had allowed only one outside crisis team in, from the WHO (which lost credibility long ago) - and they only spent a single day in Wuhan. Around that time it was discovered that China had been under-reporting infections by an order of magnitude, every province coincidentally made the same calculation error for the same period of time. > ...they're fairly common tactics worldwide. This is all unprecedented. We have never seen such transparent lies counter-messaged in near realtime by way of opensource intelligence. Grassroots btw, the corporate response has been denial - followed by a week or two of softening messaging, then admission to the truth. The information surrounding cross species transmissibility is a good example: videos starting popping up of Chinese people hurling their pets from rooftops in response to government warnings with regard to transmissibility. The corporate media immediately swung into action, declaring any such talk as racist FakeNews™ - but they were wrong again.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago

by tal8d 7y ago

It was happening long before the WH uttered a word, so if you really want to blame Trump for Chinese propaganda - you are going to have to argue for the concept of preemptive retaliation.

boomboomsubban 7y ago

Or note the fact that members of the government outside the White House have made similar statements for some time now.

tal8d 7y ago
While also providing proof that those statements predate China's antics. When China was accusing everyone of fear-mongering, and hints of travel restrictions were met with speeches about the holocaust and hypocritical appeals to the WHO, which US official is to blame for that? I've been watching this thing since December, the USG is pretty much the last one to the party - China's state run media has been saying crazy stuff since day one.
- boomboomsubban 7y ago
  >which US official is to blame for that? Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions, and I doubt this is the only reason for those actions, I can understand wanting to downplay something like this while you're in the middle of negotiations to stop a trade war. It's not hard to imagine the US calling for an immediate closing of the borders and shelving of the trade deal.
  - tal8d 7y ago
    > Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions... This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. I'd argue they aren't excusable, even from a completely amoral utilitarian perspective - because nothing they've done even looks rational. Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility, isn't going to improve negotiation prospects - no rational person would think that it could. Threatening to interrupt medical supply chains during a pandemic... I can't think of a better battlecry for those who'd advocate pulling all operations out of China. Forcing workers to return to the factories and claiming that you are back at 85% capacity, when everyone has access to near real time satellite imagery proving that your coal plants aren't running, isn't going to strengthen your negotiation position.
    - boomboomsubban 7y ago
      >This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. Over the past months they have made many good moves, and their conduct after signing the trade deal in early January seems decent. >Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility One member of the foreign department posting things on Twitter is not the actions of the state. Further, that man's post seemed to be made as a reply to the "US accusation" that the virus was unleashed intentionally by the Chinese. I don't understand how you can attack one while repeating the other. And while I don't support forcing workers back to work or misleading economic reports, they're fairly common tactics worldwide.
      - tal8d 7y ago
        > ...reply to the "US accusation" that the virus was unleashed intentionally by the Chinese. Oh that is an easy one. That US accusation was actually open speculation by Indian and German researchers examining the only data that China was willing to share with the rest of the world. They weren't accused of intentionally unleashing it, but negligence was speculated - the lying and secrecy is the cause for that, and they have only themselves to blame. China had allowed only one outside crisis team in, from the WHO (which lost credibility long ago) - and they only spent a single day in Wuhan. Around that time it was discovered that China had been under-reporting infections by an order of magnitude, every province coincidentally made the same calculation error for the same period of time. > ...they're fairly common tactics worldwide. This is all unprecedented. We have never seen such transparent lies counter-messaged in near realtime by way of opensource intelligence. Grassroots btw, the corporate response has been denial - followed by a week or two of softening messaging, then admission to the truth. The information surrounding cross species transmissibility is a good example: videos starting popping up of Chinese people hurling their pets from rooftops in response to government warnings with regard to transmissibility. The corporate media immediately swung into action, declaring any such talk as racist FakeNews™ - but they were wrong again.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago