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Time to Ban Wet Markets
- mschuster91 7y agoI agree with the general aims of the article, but I doubt that the demand that the author makes - that China closes its wet markets - will be practically doable. With a billion people that have no reason to trust their government, it's going to be hard to convince them to drop what they and their families had learned with blood during the Mao-era famines.
- ganoushoreilly 7y agoIt's also so perverse around the world. Until we can provide adequate non wet market food stores and supplies, most notably at affordable pricing for these often highly impoverished areas, there isn't much for change. Further it brings into question the items that are good or bad. Is "Racoon Dog" ok or not? Can they sell "Bats"? Then as you mention, people are going to stick to what they do. Good example, how many people are out and about even though the US government said "please stay home". It's easy to point a finger and say do as I say and not as I do, but until we solve the global issue of food / health, it will be hard to enact any tight control over these types of situations.
- enchiridion 7y agoSomehow the rest of the world doesn't have this problem. Let's start by not keeping live animals in food markets. Introduce food processing standards. Go from there. Yes they are impoverished, but this is grinding humanity to a halt. It is probably the most impactful money we can spend.
- cwzwarich 7y ago> Further it brings into question the items that are good or bad. Is "Racoon Dog" ok or not? Can they sell "Bats"? As far as I understand things (which is only from reading articles and watching YouTube videos of people visiting these markets), most of the animals like bats, civets, pangolins, etc. that are implicated in zoonotic diseases are delicacies rather than staples. If they were banned, nobody would starve.
- mschuster91 7y agoFrench eat snails and frogs. Australians eat kangaroos. Americans eat alligators. People across the world eat local food as delicacies or sometimes as staple foods. What is so different about Chinese wildlife? What matters and should be fixed is sanitary standards, not what kind of meat the Chinese eat.
- cwzwarich 7y agoSome animals show more viral diversity than others. Amongst mammals, bats are somewhat unique: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/where-coronaviruses-come-from-67011 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/where-coronavirus... https://www.the-scientist.com/notebook/why-bats-make-such-good-viral-hosts-64251 https://www.the-scientist.com/notebook/why-bats-make-such-go... http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nature22975 http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nature22975 The research on Chinese coronavirus outbreaks indicates that bats are a large reservoir for these viruses, and they frequently infect other animals, but it is difficult to pinpoint the final jump to humans exactly. Given the unique status of bats in this regard, it's probably best to keep live ones away from humans or other animals intended for human consumption.
- cleansy 7y agoChina's leadership can relocate half a million people when they want to build a dam. They will be able to crack down on wet markets. The current pandemic should be the last one happening in a non-war setting. I can write this here from home in Europe and it will end up on a disk somewhere in the US within 13ms, we should be able to prevent man-made pandemics.
- asdfadsfgfdda 7y agoConsidering how much influence their government has on businesses, it should be even easier. I wouldn't be surprised if most wet markets were actually owned by state-owned enterprises.
- fragmede 7y agoAuthoritarian regimes have less control over their populace than you imagine. The War on Drugs is a laughable failure the whole world over, and China is no exception. If something as unsavory as drugs, which are easily condemned, are able to survive and continue, even under the CCP, how successful will a law against wet markets be, when the populace is in favor of it? The issue with authoritarianism in this case, is that a fear of looking bad; weak, or ineffectual, caused mid-level party leaders to try and hide the reality of the situation, with disastrous results. (That Trumpism has lead the US in the same, disastrous direction is shameful. I don't know enough about the cause in Italy to comment about the failures there.) It's funny you should bring up the Five Eyes intelligence alliance (assuming that's what your Europe-US ping time is referring to). We had knowledge of "an unknown virus" as early as November. That no one paid attention to it is a human failing, not a technology issue.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Whatarethese 7y agoAbsolutely. The worst thing is that whenever these pandemics happen China does ban them but they a few months later they allow them to reopen. Do they think that the same thing won't happen again? Vox put out a pretty good video on wet markets recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54
- christiansakai 7y agoI remember when I was small, I accompanied my mom to a wet market, and saw a frog butchered in front of my eyes (chopped into two horizontal cut), and that gave me chills till this day that I actually don't eat frog meat. I do other stuffs though and have no problem handling knife for meat work. On the other hand, wet market like Tokyo's Tsukiji is very fresh and clean. Actually, wet markets through Japan are usually really fresh and clean, and have no noticeable smell. I wonder how they do that. Traditional Chinese culture at it again. Seems like another tool for CCP to control its people, and "culture" is just an excuse. They do the same thing for traditional Chinese martial art vs MMA as well (see the whole Xu Xiaodong fiasco).
- tmh79 7y agothe issue isn't seafood (living or dead) its live mammals and birds. Tsujiki doesn't sell any mammals/birds and the vast majority of what is sold there is long dead, so its fine. The issue is when you have lots of bats/pigs/birds/etc in close proximity.
- christiansakai 7y agoRight, I think that makes sense.
- K0SM0S 7y agoI don't know about Japan specifically but in the Caribbeans we'd often ship shrimps and other seafood in carbonic ice ("dry ice" in layman terms, turns solid below −56.4 °C (−69.5 °F). It has the added benefit of leaving no residue. I noticed as a child that there's little to no smell when using this. Afaik (1990s), it's just more expensive (and possible frostbites without gloves iirc), so we don't use it when normal ice works, but I can see Japan using that for all wet markets (because sushi of all things).
- christiansakai 7y agoYeah I think that makes sense. A lot of wet seafood market in South East Asia doesn't have that luxury so it is really just fresh catch from the sea.
- typeformer 7y agoPerhaps also a global ban on viral gain of function research at BSL 4 labs, for a bit at least.
- darawk 7y agoIt's important not to demonize Chinese people here. However, it's at the very least equally important to ensure that their agricultural practices stop producing these pandemic viruses. This is not the first one. Not even close. This is not one of those things that could have happened anywhere and the Chinese were simply unlucky. This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices and it is extremely important that those change. Some level of international shame may be appropriate here to ensure that that happens, and as always it's important that that not steer into racism. However, if a little bit of cultural shaming works towards preventing the next pandemic, then I think that's pretty well worth it at this point.
- oiasdjfoiasd 7y agoAmerican Swine Flu in 2009 killed tens of thousands of people. To say it could not have happened anywhere is wrong.
- reaperducer 7y agoAmerican Swine Flu Initially called an "outbreak", widespread H1N1 infection was first recognized in the state of Veracruz, Mexico, with evidence that the virus had been present for months before it was officially called an "epidemic" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#History
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y agoI believe the parent comment meant the frequency of these viruses coming out of wet market environments is higher than other agricultural practices.
- arcticbull 7y agoIs there data to back that up?
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
- pazimzadeh 7y agoTime to ban monoculture, dumping toxic mutagens into the environment, and overuse of antibiotics amongst other drugs.
- beamatronic 7y agoWhy does anyone think these markets are okay?
- Traster 7y agoWet markets? Do you want to be able to go to a market and buy fresh fish? Do you think that's an option that should be available to you or to your favourite restaurant owner? Because if so, then well done, you're one of the people that think these markets are ok. Edit: Here's Gordon Ramsey giving you a guide on how to buy good fish (spoiler: he's at a wet market) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GTTXJKZ08Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GTTXJKZ08Q
- holtalanm 7y agothat isn't a wet market. apparently just regular food markets are considered wet markets by people that don't know what a wet market is. those fish are DEAD. one staple of a wet market is LIVE ANIMALS.
- Traster 7y agoSo I'm hearing you want to ban all sea food restaurants.
- holtalanm 7y agoi don't believe I advocated banning anything within these post comments. but if you want to accuse me of that, you do you. since we're on the topic, a sea food restaurant proably wouldn't classify as a wet market, since the only live animals there are fish.
- mytailorisrich 7y agoDead of live makes little difference. What we're seeing is racism against a different culture.
- beamatronic 7y ago
- cageface 7y agoOr just stop eating meat altogether. There are diseases and potent antibiotic resistant bugs brewing in our factory farms in the west too. None of this is necessary for human health or nutrition.
- dabeeeenster 7y agoOr just stop eating factory farmed meat?
- cwzwarich 7y agoThe vast majority of meat comes from factory farms, so for factory-farmed meat to go away, total meat consumption has to drop dramatically.
- enchiridion 7y agoThat's simply not true. My life has drastically improved since I reduced carbs and increased meat consumption. This is not anecdata either, there are well done studies supporting this.
- cageface 7y agoReducing processed carbs is a good idea. Complex whole carbs are fine and the foundation of the diets of the healthiest populations in the world.
- jjtheblunt 7y agowould she have improved similarly by reducing carbs and increasing essential amino acids consumption, effectively protein, even if not from meat?
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoThis is a good point, factory farming in the US is endangering us al by creating superbugs, and is probably just as dangerous
- snthd 7y agohttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/18/tip-of-the-iceberg-is-our-destruction-of-nature-responsible-for-covid-19-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/18/tip-of-t... >“The wet market in Lagos is notorious. It’s like a nuclear bomb waiting to happen. But it’s not fair to demonise places which do not have fridges. These traditional markets provide much of the food for Africa and Asia,”
- heldupathome 7y agoI think it’s a disgrace that the Chinese government hasn’t apologized for 1.) keeping wet market open 2.) silencing whistleblower doctor that would have stopped a pandemic 3.) letting 5 million people leave Wuhan 4.) pressuring WHO to not recommend border shutdown against China - Conjecture 5.) silencing whistleblowers inside China and around the world 6.) at one point, was surfacing propagandas that the virus didn’t even originate in China (from japan or Italy). Also tried to float the idea that US planted the virus in Wuhan.
- vecter 7y agoThe Chinese Government is an authoritarian regime. Agree that it's terrible, but of course they won't apologize for anything.
- liquidise 7y agoThis comment is frankly lacking substance. Generally accepted, binary thinking like this is exactly the kind HN is best without.
- RC_ITR 7y ago"I an enlightened centrist would like to see some facts about why authoritarianism is bad"
- saber6 7y agoFuck off back to China you pissant.
- auggierose 7y agoIs any of the parents statement in doubt?
- tru3_power 7y agoGot any info on point 6? Did they really start that rumor?
- derefr 7y agoSo, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market of butchers/fishmongers/etc. that five-star restaurants source from all over the world? This article seems to be doing a motte-and-bailey of grossing you out with things that are just “regular meat wholesaler things” (e.g. fresh meat sitting out on ice without refrigeration) and then moralizing about the specific kinds of meats available in certain markets in China. As far as I can tell, the author really just wants to tell Chinese people to stop eating certain meats (pragmatically, bush meats; but also, less pragmatically, whatever a Westerner would find gauche, like endangered species or things we’d consider pets), but doesn’t want to come out and say what they really mean; and so instead tries to seem like they’re making a point about sanitation. In so doing, they end up arguing against the existence of wholesale meat markets in general, which is clearly silly: meat wholesaling happens all over the world every day and is perfectly sanitary, despite seeming to a layman like it’d be unsanitary. (It is unsanitary in some ways, but in general principle—which can certainly be violated, like any other standard can—it’s always exactly as sanitary as it needs to be for any given use-case. Meats that are cooked get treated with less care; meats that are served raw are treated with more.) This sort of reminds me of the parable of the new owner who came into a bakery and demanded it be cleaned because everything was greasy. The bakers kindly informed them that the grease was intentionally put on every surface, right after cleaning; and that, in fact, grease is used to clean some surfaces. Some systems function perfectly well in ways that seem disturbing to outsiders. If the bakers have been greasing the bakery for thousands of years, and you’ve never gotten sick from a loaf of bread, then maybe think a moment before telling the bakers to stop greasing the bakery. Certainly, if you buy a loaf of bread and it turns out to have a bunch of thumbtacks in it, there’s a problem. But not one, I would suspect, endemic to the concept of bakeries.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago> So, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market 1) The wet market is full of live animals in close proximity and very unsanitary conditions. So pathogens are more likely to still be alive, and can jump between diverse hosts, not just to humans. 2) The wet market is full of non-domesticated, exotic animals which carry pathogens humans are not acquainted to.
- Traster 7y agoThe phrase I really liked for these sort of articles are 'Intellectual zambonis". Here come the right wing intellectuals to buff over the rampant xenophobia and put a sheen of intellectual justification behind it. Let us be clear about this: A 'wet market' is > a market selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods as distinguished from "dry markets" which sell durable goods such as fabric and electronics Fish & Meat counters exist at literally every large supermarket in the UK, is she planning on banning Billingsgate Market? Or, have we just come up with a term 'wet market' - that no one actually has heard before, dressed it up as some asian odity and then decided we need to ban it? Wet markets aren't a particularly likely place for pandemics to spawn from (let's ignore the fact that there a literally hundreds of thousands of them operating every day). We're not fighting off dozens of epidemics. The thing that enables these outbreaks is bad food hygeine standards, and that doens't improve by banning anything we've decided is vaguely foreign and scary. Here's a Michelin starred chef going to a wet market to find you the highest quality fish to cook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GTTXJKZ08Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GTTXJKZ08Q
- enchiridion 7y agoKeeping live animals for long periods of times in close proximity to food is a recipe for pandemics. This is the 4th caused under such circumstances in recent memory. Closing the markets is the most straightforward solution. We must be decisive about this, it's the only reasonable option.
- mytailorisrich 7y agoKeeping live animals in markets is not the issue. They don't keep live fruit bats in African markets. Ebola happened nonetheless. In fact, keeping live animals is a very sensible thing to do when there is no cold chain. It is the traditional way to insure that the meat you buy is safe(ish).
- jsjddbbwj 7y agoDoesn't look like at this point we should be caring too much about not offending. You know, after thousands have died because some undomesticated people eat bats and stuff.
- McSwag 7y agoMost people, chinese or not have nothing to do with the cause of this outbreak. Let’s be real. It killed thousands of innocent people so far, including Chinese.
- jsjddbbwj 7y agoI didn't say "Chinese" anywhere. It would be stupid to generalise given the size of that country.
- EarthIsHome 7y agoYou said "undomesticated people" to be exact. Remarkable that you place the blame on people rather than the many governments that acted far too slowly.
- user982 7y agoThe unedited post originally called them "feral people."
- arcticbull 7y ago> Under starvation conditions, does it really matter what vessel of bodily flesh was delivering your next caloric intake? Why would you squander any body part? Why would you ever waste part of something you killed for sustenance? Waste is waste. > There’s an old Cantonese saying that goes, ‘anything that walks, swims, crawls, or flies with its back to heaven is edible’. I mean, it is, and frequently, it's delicious. Meat is meat, ya know, I care more about how the animal lived up until it ended up on my plate, not what animal specifically (so long as it's not endangered). > The myth that freshly killed animals taste superior is very pervasive, particularly among the older generation. ‘Freshly killed hens are much better than frozen meat in supermarkets, if you want to make perfect chicken soup,’ a 60-year-old woman named Ran told Bloomberg while shopping at a Chinese wet market. ‘The flavor is richer.’ It probably is.
- Leary 7y agoLet's think about how these viruses occur. They jump from one species of animal (dead or alive) to humans. How can we pragmatically reduce the risk? 1. Ban markets where two different species are kept close to each other. 2. Identify species that are high risk. Ban eating them if they are not essential (other than domesticated animals). 3. For domesticated animals, have tough safety regulations. 4. For villages/cities near wild populations of high risk exotic animals (bats), have a system of monitoring. 5. Provide new jobs for people that are affected by the above restrictions so we don't drive them underground away from regulations.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- fspeech 7y agoWild bats can live atop a market or somewhere else with feces picked up by animals living below. Also patient zero is thought to be not associated with the Huanan Market, although the first discovered major cluster did happen there.
- mytailorisrich 7y agoWe should refrain from giving way to blatant racism, like for example calling on purpose this virus the "Chinese virus". There is no evidence at all that 'wet markets' are the source of this. If there is an issue it is the hunting of wild animal for food and that is not specific to China, see Ebola, etc.
- RobertDeNiro 7y agoThere is quite a bit of evidence actually. People are always quick to defend wet markets when they serve no real purpose over traditional markets.
- mytailorisrich 7y agoThere isn't. A wet market is a traditional market...
- _-david-_ 7y agoIf Chinese Flu is racist (despite Chinese not being a race) then so are many others. Spanish Flu, Ebola, West Nile, etc.
- JarlUlvi 7y agoThe patient zero allegedly had no link to the seafood market at Wuhan, but let's ban them anyways? https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- yters 7y agoHow do we know the wet market is responsible?
- dluan 7y agoI'm terrified that this outbreak is giving us a taste of the ecofascism that we're in for with the climate crisis, because now authors like this one can just outright say the quiet part loud.
- adultSwim 7y agoIt's incredibly frightening.
- thundergolfer 7y agoWhich particular bit is fascist? I agree that ecofascism could very well be on the horizon, but reading this article I missed any quiet racism/fascism said loudly.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mc3 7y ago> Chinese folks with rural roots still associate freshness with how recently the meat was slaughtered. This is why sellers keep their animals alive and only butcher them before their customers’ eyes. Anecdotally: I ate the best tasting salmon I've had for a long while. It was frozen salmon from ALDI.
- datnoblesavage 7y agoTotally asinine to deplore the wet markets and not the horrors of what we're doing to other sentient species.
- adultSwim 7y agoThis sounds very anti-indigenous. There is nothing wrong with hunting.
- arcticbull 7y agoI don't think that's what they meant. I read that as there's no material difference between factory farming and wet markets.
- datnoblesavage 7y agoIndeed.
- datnoblesavage 7y agoNo moral difference, but yes you got it.
- adultSwim 7y agoThat makes sense. Thanks.
- lucian1900 7y agoIt's not actually known yet what the source of Covid19 is. There's some evidence it may have originated in the US, partly confirmed by the CDC https://twitter.com/BlackHammerOrg/status/1240324489071792128 https://twitter.com/BlackHammerOrg/status/124032448907179212... In addition, factory farming is arguably worse than wet markets, with plenty of diseases originating from it so far.
- evgen 7y agoThat is a lie and you really should stop trying to repeat it. There is no evidence at all that this virus originated in the US and a metric shit-ton of evidence that it comes from Wuhan. Given your comment history as an apologist for the CCP I am not surprised by the lie, but I still feel compelled to call it out.
- lucian1900 7y agoThe investigation is so far incomplete, with evidence pointing in a couple possible directions. We shall see when more research is done. Doesn't insisting otherwise make you a US regime apologist?
- thundergolfer 7y agoWe should ban both factory farming and wet markets. If people want to ban the latter and not the former, they’re either ignorant of the massive problems with factory farming or have a super dubious double standard.
- frei 7y agoThis author is making a bunch of tenuous equivalencies. A wet market does not have to have exotic animals, live birds or live mammals, undomesticated animals, or be dirty. There are markets that get emptied out and thoroughly cleaned every night, and sellers bring fresh fish and domesticated slaughter every morning. A call for the wholesale ban of wet markets without acknowledging that plenty of safe wet markets exist is hard to take seriously.
- LatteLazy 7y agoTime to reban them. They were banned after SARS and that worked, no new diseases from China for a few years. Then they were permitted again and we got MERS and now COVID-19. China needs to learn its lesson for good this time...
- Gibbon1 7y agoJust point out MERS originated in the middle east. And then there is also Australia’s 1994 Hendra virus outbreak where corona viruses made the jump from flying foxes to horses. People working with the infected horses fell ill and two died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henipavirus#Hendra_virus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henipavirus#Hendra_virus Also human to human orthohantavirus in South America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andes_orthohantavirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andes_orthohantavirus So it's not just China here. People can dream of punishing China all they want but the basic problem isn't going away.
- arcticbull 7y agoAnd not just wet markets.
- Gibbon1 7y agoYes. Hendra Virus was acquired by horses grazing under trees that flying foxes hang out in. That seems nothing like a wet market.
- LatteLazy 7y agoI am aware, though I thought MERS originated in a (non Chinese) wet market (turns out no one knows) . You can't stop it happening naturally. That's just life. You can stop shitty wet markets and poor hygiene/food safety causing it to happen regularly. And you can stop letting it spread because you the CCP can't handle bad news. I don't care which animals people eat or what country their in. But if the way they behave causes these viruses, they need to change. If they won't, we need to stop trading with them and prevent all travel between us. That's not punishment, it's public safety.
- brodouevencode 7y agoWhy not fix the root of the problem and remove the totalitarian socialist regime forcing it's citizens to resort to eating wild animals from questionable sources because of the lack of economic opportunity available to them. Forgive the crassness there but in a fairer less restrictive economy this almost certainly wouldn't have been a problem.
- adultSwim 7y agoAmazon having centralized control is OK but a government having control is not? China was able to effectively mobilize in ways that are putting us to shame. We should follow their lead and our own path to success in WWII.
- brodouevencode 7y agoThe difference being Amazon could and would have competitors. The CCP does not, by the force of a gun.
- thundergolfer 7y agoChinese people are not forced into using Pangolins and Bats in Chinese herbal medicine. Also, plenty of capitalist countries have wet markets. The author literally talks about her experiences in Singapore.
- brodouevencode 7y agoWhich also offer higher standards because it's citizens demand it and can get it from other sources. Unfortunately the Chinese citizens cannot because they have no economic leverage.
- stuartd 7y agoThe best argument I heard against this was - if you ban them, you just drive them underground. Where there can (by definition) be no regulation.
- amluto 7y agoIgnoring the over the top description of the wet markets, I have two other major problems with this article: 1. It seems that COVID-19 may not have come from the market in the first place: https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-may-not-have-originated-from-wet-market-2020-1?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-may-not-ha... 2. TCM may have its flaws, but it has its successes too. Artemisinin comes to mind: TCM appears to have been spot on and led to the best currently available treatment for malaria.
- Trias11 7y agoTime to ban vendors who are not following sanitary norms. Of course this won't work in China.
- grugagag 7y agoGreat, this gets flagged because...
- ykevinator 7y agoWhy is this flagged
- pcvarmint 7y agoThe evidence up to now, indicates that the coronavirus did not start at a wet market. Patient 0 did not get it at the wet market.