5 ms·

I'm slightly biased here because I will almost certainly never need a union to protect my job or interests (I'm well educated, with in-demand skills, and I'm mo

by dreamux 16y ago

I'm slightly biased here because I will almost certainly never need a union to protect my job or interests (I'm well educated, with in-demand skills, and I'm mobile). But it really bothers me how unions produce such inefficiencies in specific industries. Teachers and autoworkers being the biggest have crippled the ability of their respective industries to innovate and compete globally. While this may protect the livelihood of current workers, it hinders the ability of future workers to compete and earn a living. Like national debt its one generation fucking over the next... PS - I'm young and pissed with the general recklessness of baby boomers.

kenjackson 16y ago
The problem with this theory is in schools and regions without teacher's unions, as the article notes, there isn't an improvement. The fundamental problem is that as a whole there is neither some better performing nor cheaper workforce that is being blocked access to teaching today.
jrwoodruff 16y ago
I'm with you on the boomers, but you can't just blame unions here. You also have to blame the executives that caved to their ridiculous demands with no consideration of the long-term consequences. Yes, the union would strike, but so what. That's how battles are fought, and the execs didn't want to fight. If you haven't, read Lee Iacoca's autobiography: http://www.amazon.com/Iacocca-Autobiography-Lee/dp/0553251473 http://www.amazon.com/Iacocca-Autobiography-Lee/dp/055325147... He wrote it in 1984, but everything he says applies to the 2008/2009 collapse of the auto industry. For that matter, go back a little further and read John DeLorean's On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors. It's pretty amazing how long these poorly run companies managed to trip along, and these books make it pretty clear it's not just the unions to blame.
rjbond3rd 16y ago
Poor engineering in the auto industry was not caused by unions. The unions are basically assemblers -- how does the assembly line create engineering problems? I have no love for unions but what you say is way off-base. Anyway, if you want to look at excessive compensation and benefits in the auto industry, look a little higher. And at any rate, they only got what they negotiated, so if you want to blame anyone, blame management for poor negotiating, poor planning and just generally screwing up. Finally, if unions ruined the auto industry, why is Ford doing well relative to GM and Chrysler? I drive a foreign car at the moment, but my next car will be a Ford because they did not take bailout money, and they make excellent, reliable cars (nowadays).
- dreamux 16y ago
  I agree with you and @jrwoodruff that management also deserves blame; their focus on short term metrics stops them from negotiating reasonable contracts (if they don't strike this quarter I get my bonus, etc.) As for the assemblers preventing innovation, its much harder to pump cash into R&D when your assembly costs are twice that of your competition. And as for ford doing well relative to GM and Crysler, you're basically saying they're doing good compared to bankruptcy. I like ford (especially their current lineup), but they've fallen a long way from their massive dominance of a few decades back. To be clear, I agree with you (this reply seems a little ranty), the entire auto industry is a mess; a large part of these inefficiencies I feel comes out of dealing with unions - and I see the same things happening with teachers.
  - rjbond3rd 16y ago
    I hear you. But to put your last statement another way, a large part of these inefficiencies comes out of having to create unions in the first place, to counter the abusive employment practices of management. I think it's a two-way street. Auto unions are corrupt now, but they were obviously created as a reaction to some pretty bad behavior from management. The worst, most unnecessary, most counter-productive unions, in my limited experience, are at universities :)
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  The unions are basically assemblers -- how does the assembly line create engineering problems? Work rules. Anyway, if you want to look at excessive compensation and benefits in the auto industry, look a little higher. $3 million + worthless stock options ($15M at the time of issue) is not that high. http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/03/gm_ceos_2008_compensation_valu.html http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/03/gm_ceos_2008... Lets compare that to what some Google employees earn: http://www.oochoo.com/2010/11/google-offers-3-5-million-dollars-bonus-to-an-employee-to-stay-with-company/ http://www.oochoo.com/2010/11/google-offers-3-5-million-doll...
  - rjbond3rd 16y ago

by dreamux 16y ago

kenjackson 16y ago

The problem with this theory is in schools and regions without teacher's unions, as the article notes, there isn't an improvement. The fundamental problem is that as a whole there is neither some better performing nor cheaper workforce that is being blocked access to teaching today.

jrwoodruff 16y ago

I'm with you on the boomers, but you can't just blame unions here. You also have to blame the executives that caved to their ridiculous demands with no consideration of the long-term consequences. Yes, the union would strike, but so what. That's how battles are fought, and the execs didn't want to fight. If you haven't, read Lee Iacoca's autobiography: http://www.amazon.com/Iacocca-Autobiography-Lee/dp/0553251473 http://www.amazon.com/Iacocca-Autobiography-Lee/dp/055325147... He wrote it in 1984, but everything he says applies to the 2008/2009 collapse of the auto industry. For that matter, go back a little further and read John DeLorean's On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors. It's pretty amazing how long these poorly run companies managed to trip along, and these books make it pretty clear it's not just the unions to blame.

rjbond3rd 16y ago

Poor engineering in the auto industry was not caused by unions. The unions are basically assemblers -- how does the assembly line create engineering problems? I have no love for unions but what you say is way off-base. Anyway, if you want to look at excessive compensation and benefits in the auto industry, look a little higher. And at any rate, they only got what they negotiated, so if you want to blame anyone, blame management for poor negotiating, poor planning and just generally screwing up. Finally, if unions ruined the auto industry, why is Ford doing well relative to GM and Chrysler? I drive a foreign car at the moment, but my next car will be a Ford because they did not take bailout money, and they make excellent, reliable cars (nowadays).

dreamux 16y ago
I agree with you and @jrwoodruff that management also deserves blame; their focus on short term metrics stops them from negotiating reasonable contracts (if they don't strike this quarter I get my bonus, etc.) As for the assemblers preventing innovation, its much harder to pump cash into R&D when your assembly costs are twice that of your competition. And as for ford doing well relative to GM and Crysler, you're basically saying they're doing good compared to bankruptcy. I like ford (especially their current lineup), but they've fallen a long way from their massive dominance of a few decades back. To be clear, I agree with you (this reply seems a little ranty), the entire auto industry is a mess; a large part of these inefficiencies I feel comes out of dealing with unions - and I see the same things happening with teachers.
- rjbond3rd 16y ago
  I hear you. But to put your last statement another way, a large part of these inefficiencies comes out of having to create unions in the first place, to counter the abusive employment practices of management. I think it's a two-way street. Auto unions are corrupt now, but they were obviously created as a reaction to some pretty bad behavior from management. The worst, most unnecessary, most counter-productive unions, in my limited experience, are at universities :)
yummyfajitas 16y ago
The unions are basically assemblers -- how does the assembly line create engineering problems? Work rules. Anyway, if you want to look at excessive compensation and benefits in the auto industry, look a little higher. $3 million + worthless stock options ($15M at the time of issue) is not that high. http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/03/gm_ceos_2008_compensation_valu.html http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/03/gm_ceos_2008... Lets compare that to what some Google employees earn: http://www.oochoo.com/2010/11/google-offers-3-5-million-dollars-bonus-to-an-employee-to-stay-with-company/ http://www.oochoo.com/2010/11/google-offers-3-5-million-doll...
- rjbond3rd 16y ago