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An honest question: Why do computer professionals not exercise their rights to prevent abuse (unfair firings, increased work hours without compensation, demeani

by a688 16y ago

An honest question: Why do computer professionals not exercise their rights to prevent abuse (unfair firings, increased work hours without compensation, demeaning bosses) like some teachers? Edit: Also where do you get "require" from. Not all teachers belong to a union? Did you read the article at all?

tomjen3 16y ago
Whom would you rather be oppressed by: an employer you can quit from, or a guild you can't? Besides the end game of unions are what happened in Detroit.
- beedogs 16y ago
  You're using one specific industry and one specific example to paint every single union with the same brush. Bravo.
  - gloob 16y ago
    It's generally accepted that the singular of "anecdote" is "proof".
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    I could use the PROSA versus CSC example (which is actually the IT-workers union against a computer service company) which is going on right now. CSC is trying to get rid of 22-months notices before firing any employee, the union has given notice of strike. But thats a Danish dispute which I doubt many here is familiar with, hence the Detroit example. And it is hardly "one specific" example: its multiple agreements with multiple companies.
viggity 16y ago
If I were to be abused by my workplace, I'd vote with my feet and leave. I'd rather work in a system where the quality of my work determines my wages and not my seniority or how many masters degrees I've obtained. I'd rather work in a system that doesn't strong arm my employer into paying benefits they can't afford. I don't know about you, but I'm not worried about my 401k being there in 40 years, but I'd be really scared if I had a municipal pension.
- zarify 16y ago
  I feel I should speak up about this one as a teacher (admittedly Australian however) and a supporter of teachers unions. Let's assume we are in a performance based pay system. How do we measure performance? Is it average student grades? If so, then do we pay teachers who work in affluent areas more because every effort is afforded the students (tutoring etc)? Do we pay teachers who choose to work in more challenging schools less (and more likely have lower grades but possibly greater impact on students' lives with their successes)? What do we do with teachers hand picking elite classes to improve their perceived performance? It already happens even without performance pay? Or it could just be the luck of the draw. Sometimes I end up with difficult student groups simply because of a timetabling issue. Less pay? There are other metrics for teacher performance that have been proposed, and all the ones I have heard have been very flawed. Just to touch on the abuse bit at the start, if there was one employer in your town (as there effectively is in many rural areas when it comes to schools), should you relocate because of abuse you have received? (or indeed at all? Who doesn't deserve to feel safe from abuse in their workplace?)
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    This is a solved problem. The solution is Value Added Modeling. This has been known for many years, but unfortunately it doesn't fit within a soundbite. You build a statistical predictor of student performance, then you pay teachers proportional to Actual Performance - Predicted Performance. If teachers pick elite classes to improve their performance, the bar is raised. If their class has a predicted score of 80%, then the teacher needs an actual score of 90% to get a bonus. Conversely, if you get a class of low quality students, the predicted score might be 20%. To get the bonus, you need to achieve 30%. The only incentives you have are hand pick classes of students that you can improve. If you are great at moving students from the 50'th percentile to the 60'th percentile, but suck with other student groups, your incentive is to get a class of students in the 50'th percentile.
    - zarify 16y ago
      It's hard to argue with the logic of that approach. Classrooms aren't always logical places though. Consider factors like student movement between classes, courses and programs designed to move students to the workforce rather than complete school, parental pressure on students and teachers to place students into unrealistic pathways, and so on. I suppose you could factor all that into the model, though I'd question the feasibility of doing so. I'd also argue that grades aren't the only important factor in schooling. Building social skills, discipline, time management, helping to realize goals... All ways in which good teachers can influence students, and only some of them reflect in neat packages like test scores. Edit: I'd like to clarify that in my previous post I mentioned getting more difficult classes sometimes as the luck of the draw. I didn't mean low ability classes. I meant classes with students with serious behavioral issues, students with learning disabilities and so on. These will very often negatively impact the learning outcomes of the entire class, and is something you very rarely if ever have to deal with in top end classes.
ryandvm 16y ago
Because if it means my pay is going to be related to how long I've been doing the job (as opposed to how good I am at it) then I'm not interested.
viggity 16y ago
A lot of states (Wisconsin and Iowa included) force teachers to pay at least some union dues, even if they aren't a member of the union
yummyfajitas 16y ago
Also where do you get "require" from. Not all teachers belong to a union? Many states require non-union employees to pay the union. I believe DC does as well. Your only choices are to be taxed by the union with voting rights or be taxed by the union without voting rights.

by a688 16y ago

tomjen3 16y ago

Whom would you rather be oppressed by: an employer you can quit from, or a guild you can't? Besides the end game of unions are what happened in Detroit.

beedogs 16y ago
You're using one specific industry and one specific example to paint every single union with the same brush. Bravo.
- gloob 16y ago
  It's generally accepted that the singular of "anecdote" is "proof".
- tomjen3 16y ago
  I could use the PROSA versus CSC example (which is actually the IT-workers union against a computer service company) which is going on right now. CSC is trying to get rid of 22-months notices before firing any employee, the union has given notice of strike. But thats a Danish dispute which I doubt many here is familiar with, hence the Detroit example. And it is hardly "one specific" example: its multiple agreements with multiple companies.

viggity 16y ago

If I were to be abused by my workplace, I'd vote with my feet and leave. I'd rather work in a system where the quality of my work determines my wages and not my seniority or how many masters degrees I've obtained. I'd rather work in a system that doesn't strong arm my employer into paying benefits they can't afford. I don't know about you, but I'm not worried about my 401k being there in 40 years, but I'd be really scared if I had a municipal pension.

zarify 16y ago
I feel I should speak up about this one as a teacher (admittedly Australian however) and a supporter of teachers unions. Let's assume we are in a performance based pay system. How do we measure performance? Is it average student grades? If so, then do we pay teachers who work in affluent areas more because every effort is afforded the students (tutoring etc)? Do we pay teachers who choose to work in more challenging schools less (and more likely have lower grades but possibly greater impact on students' lives with their successes)? What do we do with teachers hand picking elite classes to improve their perceived performance? It already happens even without performance pay? Or it could just be the luck of the draw. Sometimes I end up with difficult student groups simply because of a timetabling issue. Less pay? There are other metrics for teacher performance that have been proposed, and all the ones I have heard have been very flawed. Just to touch on the abuse bit at the start, if there was one employer in your town (as there effectively is in many rural areas when it comes to schools), should you relocate because of abuse you have received? (or indeed at all? Who doesn't deserve to feel safe from abuse in their workplace?)
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  This is a solved problem. The solution is Value Added Modeling. This has been known for many years, but unfortunately it doesn't fit within a soundbite. You build a statistical predictor of student performance, then you pay teachers proportional to Actual Performance - Predicted Performance. If teachers pick elite classes to improve their performance, the bar is raised. If their class has a predicted score of 80%, then the teacher needs an actual score of 90% to get a bonus. Conversely, if you get a class of low quality students, the predicted score might be 20%. To get the bonus, you need to achieve 30%. The only incentives you have are hand pick classes of students that you can improve. If you are great at moving students from the 50'th percentile to the 60'th percentile, but suck with other student groups, your incentive is to get a class of students in the 50'th percentile.
  - zarify 16y ago
    It's hard to argue with the logic of that approach. Classrooms aren't always logical places though. Consider factors like student movement between classes, courses and programs designed to move students to the workforce rather than complete school, parental pressure on students and teachers to place students into unrealistic pathways, and so on. I suppose you could factor all that into the model, though I'd question the feasibility of doing so. I'd also argue that grades aren't the only important factor in schooling. Building social skills, discipline, time management, helping to realize goals... All ways in which good teachers can influence students, and only some of them reflect in neat packages like test scores. Edit: I'd like to clarify that in my previous post I mentioned getting more difficult classes sometimes as the luck of the draw. I didn't mean low ability classes. I meant classes with students with serious behavioral issues, students with learning disabilities and so on. These will very often negatively impact the learning outcomes of the entire class, and is something you very rarely if ever have to deal with in top end classes.

ryandvm 16y ago

Because if it means my pay is going to be related to how long I've been doing the job (as opposed to how good I am at it) then I'm not interested.

viggity 16y ago

A lot of states (Wisconsin and Iowa included) force teachers to pay at least some union dues, even if they aren't a member of the union

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Also where do you get "require" from. Not all teachers belong to a union? Many states require non-union employees to pay the union. I believe DC does as well. Your only choices are to be taxed by the union with voting rights or be taxed by the union without voting rights.