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Me neither. The hardware they offer is absolutely fantastic. And some of the software (from e.g. Panic or OmniGroup). But even running a decent terminal requir

by nextos 7y ago

Me neither. The hardware they offer is absolutely fantastic. And some of the software (from e.g. Panic or OmniGroup). But even running a decent terminal requires purchasing an app and setting up mosh on the other side. There's no Esc in their keyboards. There are too many roadblocks and glitches. I wish I could buy an iPad and simply open a terminal and ssh to my machine of choice. Right now, it's much easier to buy a Surface Go / Pro. And these run Linux natively really well.

qubex 7y ago
Probably because developers and system operators, while a large majority here on Hacker News, actually represent a tiny minority of actual users. Developers’ workflows are essentially outliers.
- nextos 7y ago
  Sure, but a decent share of Apple's success was due to making OS X a very nice development platform. This attracted developers who created great desktop and mobile software. So I'd argue it's in Apple's best interest to keep developers happy. Also, is it that hard for a giant of Apple's size to put a fully fledged terminal in iPadOS?
  - qubex 7y ago
    > is it that hard for a giant of Apple’s size to put a fully fledged terminal in iPadOS? Of course it isn’t. And that tells you that it’s a deliberate decision not to, because it’s miles from the platform’s intended use by the intended users. Besides, it would be very confusing for users to have a terminal that can only connect to remote systems (which most people likely don’t have access to), because it’s rather improbable that Apple would choose to expose iPadOS through a shell.
    - nextos 7y ago
      OS X, now macOS, includes lots of applications that are "miles from the platform’s intended use by the intended users". A huge userbase will always have tons of different clusters, and it's good to serve them all. Furthermore, the terminal could be simply running in a little Unix sandbox, like Termux, and that could be a great entry point for kids to lots of different interpreters to learn programming. Not exclusive to remote into other systems.
      - qubex 7y ago
        Why on earth should they go the extra mile of creating a sandboxed UNIX-like environment for the sake of a few power users who desire to run terminal commands which cannot (if they follow their own rules) affect other applications and/or interact in any stateful manner with the filesystem? Even as a learning experience, why give (power)users the ability to acquaint themselves with a generic platform that is not tied to Apple’s own offerings? It makes no commercial or even pedagogical sense. Try out iSH: https://ish.app https://ish.app It sounds like it’s what you want. Apple won’t be providing anything even remotely comparable for the foreseeable future, I’m sure.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    > Sure, but a decent share of Apple's success was due to making OS X a very nice development platform. This attracted developers who created great desktop and mobile software Apple's customers are the >1 billion user install base it has for iOS and more broadly the Apple ecosystem. Developers will develop great desktop and mobile software because that's the way to reach the incredibly valuable install base where consumer spend is 2x+ that of competing platforms. You don't win developers purely by giving them nice developer features. You win them by giving them something worth developing for. Part of that is a nice developer ecosystem, but that not enough on its own.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Apple keeps their developers happy, those that embrace Objective-C and Swift, serving the Apple users. They don't care about those that use macOS as pretty Linux/BSD replacement. Just like NeXT never did, UNIX compatibility was a means to bring UNIX software into the platform, that was all.
- elorant 7y ago
  Tiny, but very influential with deep pockets. Apple wouldn't be where it is today on their laptop business if developers haven't adopted en masse their macbooks.
  - qubex 7y ago
    [citation needed] — meaning that merely because developers perceive themselves as being directly influential doesn’t mean that they are necessarily. Sure, developers ultimately dictate the success or failure of a platform by choosing to populate its ecosystem of applications or give it a pass, but I assure you that if the only way to develop for iOS/iPadOS were a clunky UNIVAC fed with punched cards, developers would be hand-punching ‘em cards in order to get on the runaway bandwagon of the successful platform.
    - elorant 7y ago
      You're missing the point. We're not influential because we can make or break a platform. We're influential because we're early adopters and thus we can see where the future is going. And as early adopters we interface between a given technology and the general public. We're not just individuals working out of a dungeon. We have friends and family and a social cycle who turn to us for advice for their technology needs.
      - gowld 7y ago
        That's how it was 30years ago. Now companies market to laypeople directly with simple plug and play solutions
      - IAmEveryone 7y ago
        If there are any products in computing history that do not owe their success to the model you're describing, it's iPod/iPhone/iPad. We got disintermediated with the very first iPod. Remember "less space than a Nomad. Lame!"? That was very much the attitude of the crowd you are describing. I distinctly remember a pry-my-keyboard-from-my-dead-hands attitude when the iPhone came out. It's only benevolence that stops me from constantly reminding the "power user" among my friends that his first reaction was "Not even a stylus?"
- askafriend 7y ago
  It's clear no one here knows any 3D artist, illustrators, graphic designers, UI/UX designers, photographers, videographers, musicians, etc Because if they did, they wouldn't make some of the silly comments I've seen here.
  - qubex 7y ago
    Well beyond those (other) specialised use-cases (which are admittedly well catered-for by the current iPad hardware and software offerings), I find that the iPad Pro is a wonderful machine for most of my business workflow: constructing and editing spreadsheets in Numbers and Excel, writing documents in Pages and Word, doing serious computation using Wolfram Online (“Cloud-based Mathematica, irksome though it may be to not have a local computing instance), and of course the usual web-browsing & emailing kind of activity. The device literally has the form factor of a thick notebook when folded inside its robust Logitech keyboard case, connects to the internet over 4G (if no WiFi is available), and is a perfect work environment.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    > 3D artist, illustrators, graphic designers, UI/UX designers, photographers, videographers, musicians, Lots of use cases in many of these professions. In particular, there are a lot of professional artists/ illustrators have switched to the iPad. I also know there is an active community of iPad accessories and software for musicians. Also, while many of the above mentioned professionals can't move their entire workflow to the iPad, quite of few of them have already moved big portions of their workflows to the iPad. This isn't a zero sum game. For a lot of professionals there is room in their toolbox for multiple computers.
    - askafriend 7y ago
      Yeah that's what I was saying. We're in total agreement.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Simple things should be easy, hard things possible. That's the essence of good design. Not, prevention of minority use cases.
  - petecox 7y ago
    Well at least it finally has a trackpad, after years of insisting that no one would ever want to manipulate the UI with a mouse pointer. un-prevention, of sorts.

by nextos 7y ago

qubex 7y ago

Probably because developers and system operators, while a large majority here on Hacker News, actually represent a tiny minority of actual users. Developers’ workflows are essentially outliers.

nextos 7y ago
Sure, but a decent share of Apple's success was due to making OS X a very nice development platform. This attracted developers who created great desktop and mobile software. So I'd argue it's in Apple's best interest to keep developers happy. Also, is it that hard for a giant of Apple's size to put a fully fledged terminal in iPadOS?
- qubex 7y ago
  > is it that hard for a giant of Apple’s size to put a fully fledged terminal in iPadOS? Of course it isn’t. And that tells you that it’s a deliberate decision not to, because it’s miles from the platform’s intended use by the intended users. Besides, it would be very confusing for users to have a terminal that can only connect to remote systems (which most people likely don’t have access to), because it’s rather improbable that Apple would choose to expose iPadOS through a shell.
  - nextos 7y ago
    OS X, now macOS, includes lots of applications that are "miles from the platform’s intended use by the intended users". A huge userbase will always have tons of different clusters, and it's good to serve them all. Furthermore, the terminal could be simply running in a little Unix sandbox, like Termux, and that could be a great entry point for kids to lots of different interpreters to learn programming. Not exclusive to remote into other systems.
    - qubex 7y ago
      Why on earth should they go the extra mile of creating a sandboxed UNIX-like environment for the sake of a few power users who desire to run terminal commands which cannot (if they follow their own rules) affect other applications and/or interact in any stateful manner with the filesystem? Even as a learning experience, why give (power)users the ability to acquaint themselves with a generic platform that is not tied to Apple’s own offerings? It makes no commercial or even pedagogical sense. Try out iSH: https://ish.app https://ish.app It sounds like it’s what you want. Apple won’t be providing anything even remotely comparable for the foreseeable future, I’m sure.
- askafriend 7y ago
  > Sure, but a decent share of Apple's success was due to making OS X a very nice development platform. This attracted developers who created great desktop and mobile software Apple's customers are the >1 billion user install base it has for iOS and more broadly the Apple ecosystem. Developers will develop great desktop and mobile software because that's the way to reach the incredibly valuable install base where consumer spend is 2x+ that of competing platforms. You don't win developers purely by giving them nice developer features. You win them by giving them something worth developing for. Part of that is a nice developer ecosystem, but that not enough on its own.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Apple keeps their developers happy, those that embrace Objective-C and Swift, serving the Apple users. They don't care about those that use macOS as pretty Linux/BSD replacement. Just like NeXT never did, UNIX compatibility was a means to bring UNIX software into the platform, that was all.
elorant 7y ago
Tiny, but very influential with deep pockets. Apple wouldn't be where it is today on their laptop business if developers haven't adopted en masse their macbooks.
- qubex 7y ago
  [citation needed] — meaning that merely because developers perceive themselves as being directly influential doesn’t mean that they are necessarily. Sure, developers ultimately dictate the success or failure of a platform by choosing to populate its ecosystem of applications or give it a pass, but I assure you that if the only way to develop for iOS/iPadOS were a clunky UNIVAC fed with punched cards, developers would be hand-punching ‘em cards in order to get on the runaway bandwagon of the successful platform.
  - elorant 7y ago
    You're missing the point. We're not influential because we can make or break a platform. We're influential because we're early adopters and thus we can see where the future is going. And as early adopters we interface between a given technology and the general public. We're not just individuals working out of a dungeon. We have friends and family and a social cycle who turn to us for advice for their technology needs.
    - gowld 7y ago
      That's how it was 30years ago. Now companies market to laypeople directly with simple plug and play solutions
    - IAmEveryone 7y ago
      If there are any products in computing history that do not owe their success to the model you're describing, it's iPod/iPhone/iPad. We got disintermediated with the very first iPod. Remember "less space than a Nomad. Lame!"? That was very much the attitude of the crowd you are describing. I distinctly remember a pry-my-keyboard-from-my-dead-hands attitude when the iPhone came out. It's only benevolence that stops me from constantly reminding the "power user" among my friends that his first reaction was "Not even a stylus?"
askafriend 7y ago
It's clear no one here knows any 3D artist, illustrators, graphic designers, UI/UX designers, photographers, videographers, musicians, etc Because if they did, they wouldn't make some of the silly comments I've seen here.
- qubex 7y ago
  Well beyond those (other) specialised use-cases (which are admittedly well catered-for by the current iPad hardware and software offerings), I find that the iPad Pro is a wonderful machine for most of my business workflow: constructing and editing spreadsheets in Numbers and Excel, writing documents in Pages and Word, doing serious computation using Wolfram Online (“Cloud-based Mathematica, irksome though it may be to not have a local computing instance), and of course the usual web-browsing & emailing kind of activity. The device literally has the form factor of a thick notebook when folded inside its robust Logitech keyboard case, connects to the internet over 4G (if no WiFi is available), and is a perfect work environment.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  > 3D artist, illustrators, graphic designers, UI/UX designers, photographers, videographers, musicians, Lots of use cases in many of these professions. In particular, there are a lot of professional artists/ illustrators have switched to the iPad. I also know there is an active community of iPad accessories and software for musicians. Also, while many of the above mentioned professionals can't move their entire workflow to the iPad, quite of few of them have already moved big portions of their workflows to the iPad. This isn't a zero sum game. For a lot of professionals there is room in their toolbox for multiple computers.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    Yeah that's what I was saying. We're in total agreement.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
Simple things should be easy, hard things possible. That's the essence of good design. Not, prevention of minority use cases.
- petecox 7y ago
  Well at least it finally has a trackpad, after years of insisting that no one would ever want to manipulate the UI with a mouse pointer. un-prevention, of sorts.