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The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to t

The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?) The lack of trust in the US is really disappointing. Americans are so proud of its democracy---yet consistently hate and distrust the government. I fear at the end of all of this, it'll be like the line at the end of The Big Short: "They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

_underfl0w_ 7y ago
> When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon? Chelsea Manning comes to mind, and that's just in the past month.
catalogia 7y ago
Some of the things you're saying seem contradictory (American politicians are rarely imprisoned for their crimes, therefore Americans should be more trusting of their government? That seems completely backward) so forgive me if I've misunderstood you completely. With that said... > "The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?)" South Korea isn't all sunshine and roses either. They had numerous military coupes in post-war half of the 20th century. One of their dictators was sentenced to death for massacring hundreds of pro-democracy protestors, but was then pardoned for this. Things might not be so bad in South Korea currently, but the nastier stuff is still in living memory today. South Koreans would be wise to tread carefully when empowering their government. I think the cautious attitude modern Germans have towards these matters is a good approach: "Never again" rather than "It could never happen again." As for the attitudes of Americans, no organization nor individual is entitled to trust; trust must be earned. Insofar as Americans don't trust their government, it's because their government hasn't earned their trust. On the contrary, the American government has frequently violated whatever little trust anybody has in it. Modern America may not have any recent military dictatorships like South Korea, but there is nevertheless a lot of disturbing unpleasantness in recent history.
- fatjokes 7y ago
  I don't think you've misunderstood, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that South Korea is all "sunshine and roses". However, given that it seems that the American gov't hasn't earned its citizens trust after ~300 years, perhaps it's time to try something very different, or at least have an open mind to suggestions. Several countries now have demonstrated a range of options: China, SK, Taiwan, Singapore. Some are authoritarian, others are democratic. It may be time to stop arguing why each case won't work here and give it a chance.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    I think a lot of people would like things to work differently, but trusting the American government, which has repeatedly proved itself unworthy of trust, doesn't seem like a good first step to effecting change.

_underfl0w_ 7y ago

> When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon? Chelsea Manning comes to mind, and that's just in the past month.

catalogia 7y ago

Some of the things you're saying seem contradictory (American politicians are rarely imprisoned for their crimes, therefore Americans should be more trusting of their government? That seems completely backward) so forgive me if I've misunderstood you completely. With that said... > "The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?)" South Korea isn't all sunshine and roses either. They had numerous military coupes in post-war half of the 20th century. One of their dictators was sentenced to death for massacring hundreds of pro-democracy protestors, but was then pardoned for this. Things might not be so bad in South Korea currently, but the nastier stuff is still in living memory today. South Koreans would be wise to tread carefully when empowering their government. I think the cautious attitude modern Germans have towards these matters is a good approach: "Never again" rather than "It could never happen again." As for the attitudes of Americans, no organization nor individual is entitled to trust; trust must be earned. Insofar as Americans don't trust their government, it's because their government hasn't earned their trust. On the contrary, the American government has frequently violated whatever little trust anybody has in it. Modern America may not have any recent military dictatorships like South Korea, but there is nevertheless a lot of disturbing unpleasantness in recent history.

fatjokes 7y ago
I don't think you've misunderstood, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that South Korea is all "sunshine and roses". However, given that it seems that the American gov't hasn't earned its citizens trust after ~300 years, perhaps it's time to try something very different, or at least have an open mind to suggestions. Several countries now have demonstrated a range of options: China, SK, Taiwan, Singapore. Some are authoritarian, others are democratic. It may be time to stop arguing why each case won't work here and give it a chance.
- catalogia 7y ago
  I think a lot of people would like things to work differently, but trusting the American government, which has repeatedly proved itself unworthy of trust, doesn't seem like a good first step to effecting change.