5 ms·

Tesla factory is still open for business

26 points by camjohnson26 7y ago

JackPoach 7y ago
Musk is going to be totally destroyed later for that, especially as COVID-19 spreads in the US. I don't understand the logic over this decision to stay open 'because fears are overblown.' Especially since it's clear that the biggest problem isn't going to be coronavirus, which will pass within a few month, but an economic recession that will follow. Tesla is going to be hammered either way, why risk your employee health now?
- mrinfinite 7y ago
  down side loss risk is huge, up side gain risk is not huge. So bold and illogical decision it seems.
  - elisharobinson 7y ago
    i dont appose the sentiment but i appose the statement of this being a illogical decission. lets assume that unit of loss to tesla is 1 , loss associated with virus affecting customers and employees -> 5 . loss associated with virus shuting down production indefinitely -> 30 , loss associated with authorites suing you for breaking the law 0.3 . probability of the factory being shut down by authorities -> 0.8 , probability of your employees and customers getting affected -> 0.7 and probability of authorities suing you for breaking the order is 0.5 . so in total (30x0.8) > (5x0.7 + 0.5x0.3) . we might disagree in the scale and probabilities but the conclusion that this was a illogical decission is not direct.
    - rsynnott 7y ago
      Publicity from their factory becoming a Coronavirus locus... priceless. There's a _huge_ negative publicity risk here, depending on how things unfold.
      - elisharobinson 7y ago
        the customers may come and they may not come , but if the plant stays shut the whole company will shut down specially after having a lot of capx to get a new production line for making model y.
- jsight 7y ago
  The excessive focus on Musk is counterproductive, IMO. AFAIK, F, GM, and Nissan are not closing factories in the US. These companies are very unlikely to do so without being forced.
  - JackPoach 7y ago
    Their employees certainly aren't happy about that either - https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/17/united-auto-workers-call-on-gm-ford-fca-to-shut-down-u-s-factories/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/17/united-auto-workers-call-o... especially given https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-generalmotors/gm-ford-say-employees-have-tested-positive-for-covid-19-idUSKBN2142J5 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-genera...
  - fennecfoxen 7y ago
    let's add some news context "Honda Plans to Shut Down North American Plants for Six Days Due to Virus Concerns, Demand Decline" https://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-plans-to-shut-down-north-american-plants-for-six-days-due-to-virus-concerns-demand-decline-11584537844 https://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-plans-to-shut-down-north-... "UAW, Auto Makers Agree to Partial Plant Shutdowns to Curtail Coronavirus. Ford temporarily closes Chicago factory for virus-related parts shortage... The United Auto Workers and Detroit car companies reached agreements on coronavirus-mitigation efforts that for now will avoid a two-week shutdown of U.S. factories." https://www.wsj.com/articles/uaw-presses-auto-makers-to-close-u-s-plants-over-coronavirus-concerns-11584465805 https://www.wsj.com/articles/uaw-presses-auto-makers-to-clos... "Volkswagen, Airbus Halt European Production Amid Wave of Factory Closures" (Europe not US) https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-airbus-halt-european-production-amid-wave-of-factory-closures-11584442105 https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-airbus-halt-european...
  - neaden 7y ago
    I don't believe any of those companies have factories that are in areas that are under shut down orders though. And I don't think any of those companies CEOs have been publicly going on Twitter to dismiss people's fears over COVID.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  If the fears are really overblown, Elon Musk ought to consider suing over the quarantine order before violating it. He'd have a meaningful case, as this is an entirely unprecedented abrogation of civil liberties, and it is not clear that it was applied with due process of law. (The ultimate wisdom of his position is neither endorsed nor condemned by this post.)
  - rrss 7y ago
    What would the case look like? CA has laws on the books that gives county health officers the authority to do basically anything in a state of emergency. What would the argument be to overturn those laws?
    - fennecfoxen 7y ago
      California law is indeed broad ("Each health officer knowing or having reason to believe that any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation of the department, or any other contagious, infectious or communicable disease exists, or has recently existed, within the territory under his or her jurisdiction, shall take measures as may be necessary to prevent the spread of the disease or occurrence of additional cases.") If, for the purpose of argument, we stipulate as fact that the fears are overblown, he might be able to successfully attack this order as "unnecessary" under that law, but that sounds iffy, and the health officers will no doubt be afforded substantial deference. A better avenue for attack would be via the US Constitution and its basic protections for civil rights, liberty, and freedom of assembly. The Fifth Amendment specifically applies, forbidding that anyone "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The regional lockdown affects ~7 million people, to contain a disease that has affected ~300 (?) known patients (please correct me if this is badly wrong) so this lockdown may be serving a compelling government interest, but it is probably not doing so via the least restrictive means available, which would usually be the standard for abrogating civil liberties. It's a meaningful case, at least. Whether he wins or loses such a hypothetical case, though, it would leave things clearer than the situation which jgalt observes nearby: > it seems more like Musk is the sort to get sued, not the one to be suing Better to be fighting in the courts from the start, rather than being confronted by the sheriff partway through the workday.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
This is yesterday's news. Does anybody have today's? Yesterday they were classified as an essential service and were allowed to stay open (even though they could & should have voluntarily closed). Yesterday evening they lost that classification, did they open today or not?
- jsight 7y ago
  Its an interesting question. Everything that I'm hearing tells me that workers are still going to work.
- mcphilip 7y ago
  Reuters reporting employees showing up at work today: https://twitter.com/deitaone/status/1240287646825558016?s=21 https://twitter.com/deitaone/status/1240287646825558016?s=21
- sschueller 7y ago
  Seems to still be open as of 3 hours ago and sheriff showed up. [1] (Biased source) [1] https://twitter.com/ElonsTruths/status/1240249636914434052 https://twitter.com/ElonsTruths/status/1240249636914434052
austincheney 7y ago
People were skewering Charter for this same behavior and identical responses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22609038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22609038
excalibur 7y ago
Worth pointing out that traditional automakers' factories remain open as well. The difference is they have the UAW, which still has some small amount of bargaining power. They were unsuccessful in securing a full shutdown, but did manage to negotiate a partial one, with some additional precautions to help limit the spread. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2020/03/17/detroit-3-ceos-uaw-face-off-over-us-factory-production/5069864002/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2020/0...
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  Detroit isn't currently under a shelter in place directive, as far as I can see.
- rst 7y ago
  It's also pretty directly relevant that their factories are not in areas with a legally enforceable shelter-in-place order. Elon seems to be trying to get cute with transportation being one of the essential services exempt from the ban. He may be about to discover this is a bad argument to get into with the county sheriff. https://www.wired.com/story/sheriff-tells-tesla-not-essential-musk-thinks/ https://www.wired.com/story/sheriff-tells-tesla-not-essentia...
poof131 7y ago
Ordered to close now. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-s-Fremont-factory-ordered-to-shut-down-15137774.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-s-Fremont...
- rkagerer 7y ago
  Nope, that's just a rehash of the Sheriff's tweet. As far as I can tell nothing's changed in the last several hours. There's nothing in that article pointing to any specific order directed point-blank at Tesla. The only order I've seen to date is the broad "shelter in place" one, which Tesla either thinks doesn't apply to them or is intentionally defying. (I've seen rumors the Sheriff's office showed up at the factory today, and that a deal was reached to just finish cars currently on the production line, but nothing new from any credible source so far).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Chronology of the events: The morning of March 16: Six counties in the Bay Area have issued a “shelter in place” order with the hope to reduce the transmission of COVID-19 and flatten the growth of the virus. It goes into effect on March 17. The afternoon of March 16: Tesla employees are told to show up to work unless they are feeling sick. The evening of March 16: Elon Musk says ‘coronavirus panic is worse than virus itself’ in email to Tesla employees. He tells employees to stay home if they don’t feel comfortable, but Tesla will keep operating. March 17: local county authorities have confirmed Tesla is exempt as an “essential business.” The evening of March 17: Sheriff department says Tesla is not an ‘essential business’ and the factory must obey coronavirus shutdown order March 18: Witnesses at Tesla factory says that employees are coming in to work and the employee parking lot is still full of cars for the morning shift. from https://electrek.co/2020/03/18/tesla-fremont-factory-operating-despite-sheriffs-order/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/18/tesla-fremont-factory-operati...
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  From the comments: i think they reached an agreement to finish the cars on the production line. They will probably clear out tomorrow

26 points by camjohnson26 7y ago

Musk is going to be totally destroyed later for that, especially as COVID-19 spreads in the US. I don't understand the logic over this decision to stay open 'because fears are overblown.' Especially since it's clear that the biggest problem isn't going to be coronavirus, which will pass within a few month, but an economic recession that will follow. Tesla is going to be hammered either way, why risk your employee health now?

mrinfinite 7y ago
down side loss risk is huge, up side gain risk is not huge. So bold and illogical decision it seems.
- elisharobinson 7y ago
  i dont appose the sentiment but i appose the statement of this being a illogical decission. lets assume that unit of loss to tesla is 1 , loss associated with virus affecting customers and employees -> 5 . loss associated with virus shuting down production indefinitely -> 30 , loss associated with authorites suing you for breaking the law 0.3 . probability of the factory being shut down by authorities -> 0.8 , probability of your employees and customers getting affected -> 0.7 and probability of authorities suing you for breaking the order is 0.5 . so in total (30x0.8) > (5x0.7 + 0.5x0.3) . we might disagree in the scale and probabilities but the conclusion that this was a illogical decission is not direct.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    Publicity from their factory becoming a Coronavirus locus... priceless. There's a _huge_ negative publicity risk here, depending on how things unfold.
    - elisharobinson 7y ago
      the customers may come and they may not come , but if the plant stays shut the whole company will shut down specially after having a lot of capx to get a new production line for making model y.
jsight 7y ago
The excessive focus on Musk is counterproductive, IMO. AFAIK, F, GM, and Nissan are not closing factories in the US. These companies are very unlikely to do so without being forced.
- JackPoach 7y ago
  Their employees certainly aren't happy about that either - https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/17/united-auto-workers-call-on-gm-ford-fca-to-shut-down-u-s-factories/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/17/united-auto-workers-call-o... especially given https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-generalmotors/gm-ford-say-employees-have-tested-positive-for-covid-19-idUSKBN2142J5 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-genera...
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  let's add some news context "Honda Plans to Shut Down North American Plants for Six Days Due to Virus Concerns, Demand Decline" https://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-plans-to-shut-down-north-american-plants-for-six-days-due-to-virus-concerns-demand-decline-11584537844 https://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-plans-to-shut-down-north-... "UAW, Auto Makers Agree to Partial Plant Shutdowns to Curtail Coronavirus. Ford temporarily closes Chicago factory for virus-related parts shortage... The United Auto Workers and Detroit car companies reached agreements on coronavirus-mitigation efforts that for now will avoid a two-week shutdown of U.S. factories." https://www.wsj.com/articles/uaw-presses-auto-makers-to-close-u-s-plants-over-coronavirus-concerns-11584465805 https://www.wsj.com/articles/uaw-presses-auto-makers-to-clos... "Volkswagen, Airbus Halt European Production Amid Wave of Factory Closures" (Europe not US) https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-airbus-halt-european-production-amid-wave-of-factory-closures-11584442105 https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-airbus-halt-european...
- neaden 7y ago
  I don't believe any of those companies have factories that are in areas that are under shut down orders though. And I don't think any of those companies CEOs have been publicly going on Twitter to dismiss people's fears over COVID.
fennecfoxen 7y ago
If the fears are really overblown, Elon Musk ought to consider suing over the quarantine order before violating it. He'd have a meaningful case, as this is an entirely unprecedented abrogation of civil liberties, and it is not clear that it was applied with due process of law. (The ultimate wisdom of his position is neither endorsed nor condemned by this post.)
- rrss 7y ago
  What would the case look like? CA has laws on the books that gives county health officers the authority to do basically anything in a state of emergency. What would the argument be to overturn those laws?
  - fennecfoxen 7y ago
    California law is indeed broad ("Each health officer knowing or having reason to believe that any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation of the department, or any other contagious, infectious or communicable disease exists, or has recently existed, within the territory under his or her jurisdiction, shall take measures as may be necessary to prevent the spread of the disease or occurrence of additional cases.") If, for the purpose of argument, we stipulate as fact that the fears are overblown, he might be able to successfully attack this order as "unnecessary" under that law, but that sounds iffy, and the health officers will no doubt be afforded substantial deference. A better avenue for attack would be via the US Constitution and its basic protections for civil rights, liberty, and freedom of assembly. The Fifth Amendment specifically applies, forbidding that anyone "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The regional lockdown affects ~7 million people, to contain a disease that has affected ~300 (?) known patients (please correct me if this is badly wrong) so this lockdown may be serving a compelling government interest, but it is probably not doing so via the least restrictive means available, which would usually be the standard for abrogating civil liberties. It's a meaningful case, at least. Whether he wins or loses such a hypothetical case, though, it would leave things clearer than the situation which jgalt observes nearby: > it seems more like Musk is the sort to get sued, not the one to be suing Better to be fighting in the courts from the start, rather than being confronted by the sheriff partway through the workday.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

This is yesterday's news. Does anybody have today's? Yesterday they were classified as an essential service and were allowed to stay open (even though they could & should have voluntarily closed). Yesterday evening they lost that classification, did they open today or not?

jsight 7y ago
Its an interesting question. Everything that I'm hearing tells me that workers are still going to work.
mcphilip 7y ago
Reuters reporting employees showing up at work today: https://twitter.com/deitaone/status/1240287646825558016?s=21 https://twitter.com/deitaone/status/1240287646825558016?s=21
sschueller 7y ago
Seems to still be open as of 3 hours ago and sheriff showed up. [1] (Biased source) [1] https://twitter.com/ElonsTruths/status/1240249636914434052 https://twitter.com/ElonsTruths/status/1240249636914434052

austincheney 7y ago

People were skewering Charter for this same behavior and identical responses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22609038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22609038

excalibur 7y ago

Worth pointing out that traditional automakers' factories remain open as well. The difference is they have the UAW, which still has some small amount of bargaining power. They were unsuccessful in securing a full shutdown, but did manage to negotiate a partial one, with some additional precautions to help limit the spread. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2020/03/17/detroit-3-ceos-uaw-face-off-over-us-factory-production/5069864002/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2020/0...

joshuamorton 7y ago
Detroit isn't currently under a shelter in place directive, as far as I can see.
rst 7y ago
It's also pretty directly relevant that their factories are not in areas with a legally enforceable shelter-in-place order. Elon seems to be trying to get cute with transportation being one of the essential services exempt from the ban. He may be about to discover this is a bad argument to get into with the county sheriff. https://www.wired.com/story/sheriff-tells-tesla-not-essential-musk-thinks/ https://www.wired.com/story/sheriff-tells-tesla-not-essentia...

poof131 7y ago

Ordered to close now. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-s-Fremont-factory-ordered-to-shut-down-15137774.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-s-Fremont...

rkagerer 7y ago
Nope, that's just a rehash of the Sheriff's tweet. As far as I can tell nothing's changed in the last several hours. There's nothing in that article pointing to any specific order directed point-blank at Tesla. The only order I've seen to date is the broad "shelter in place" one, which Tesla either thinks doesn't apply to them or is intentionally defying. (I've seen rumors the Sheriff's office showed up at the factory today, and that a deal was reached to just finish cars currently on the production line, but nothing new from any credible source so far).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bryanlarsen 7y ago

Chronology of the events: The morning of March 16: Six counties in the Bay Area have issued a “shelter in place” order with the hope to reduce the transmission of COVID-19 and flatten the growth of the virus. It goes into effect on March 17. The afternoon of March 16: Tesla employees are told to show up to work unless they are feeling sick. The evening of March 16: Elon Musk says ‘coronavirus panic is worse than virus itself’ in email to Tesla employees. He tells employees to stay home if they don’t feel comfortable, but Tesla will keep operating. March 17: local county authorities have confirmed Tesla is exempt as an “essential business.” The evening of March 17: Sheriff department says Tesla is not an ‘essential business’ and the factory must obey coronavirus shutdown order March 18: Witnesses at Tesla factory says that employees are coming in to work and the employee parking lot is still full of cars for the morning shift. from https://electrek.co/2020/03/18/tesla-fremont-factory-operating-despite-sheriffs-order/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/18/tesla-fremont-factory-operati...

bryanlarsen 7y ago
From the comments: i think they reached an agreement to finish the cars on the production line. They will probably clear out tomorrow