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We all (most of us anyway) wanted them to go back to the scissor design. Are we going to now complain that they did what the community has been begging them to

We all (most of us anyway) wanted them to go back to the scissor design. Are we going to now complain that they did what the community has been begging them to do? Was butterfly a mistake? Yes. Were they slow to correct the issue? Yes. Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. As far as talking about it being amazing, its called marketing spin. This is how it works. However, those two sentences do not say anything about it being amazing. It simply focuses on the positive features of the keyboard. The two sentences above clearly communicate to mac users that the company has fixed the problems that people wanted fixed. Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect.

sunir 7y ago
They deserve flak and they are getting it. It doesn’t have to be logical. It is emotional. They also created an emotional brand. Somehow I think Apple can handle it. Anyone wasting energy complaining is only doing so because they are waiting to buy again. It makes as much sense defending them as it does yelling at them about a keyboard.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  I dunno, I used to buy Apples because they had great hardware for a fair price (premium, sure, but if you're in the market for a premium machine...), but my last two machines have been a Dell and a Surface. It's different trade offs, but '\_o_/` I was never wedded to their operating system anyway.
- rapind 7y ago
  I held off buying a new MBP replacement for two years now thanks to the massive criticism over the butterfly fiasco. I'd say the complaining was useful and had an impact. Not wasteful at all.
throw7337 7y ago
>Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. No, we moved on and do not care. There are many companies that make laptops and keyboards. 5 years too late.
eloisant 7y ago
Honestly, Apple's marketing has always been worse than the other companies when it comes to sell basic things as a revolutionary, life changing progress.
- Retric 7y ago
  IMO, when you see car companies 2020 model gets 3 more horsepower or 1 more MPG, it’s better to consider how difficult that was rather than simply expecting it. Even a slightly better toothbrush is a positive life change. We have normalized progress, but even seemingly incremental progress is making the world a better place. Further, it can take revolutionary change to maintain incremental improvements. Filling HDD with say Helium has a lot of knock on effects hidden by the spec sheet.
Amygaz 7y ago
The two sentence above clearly oversell the product: "refined", "delivers", "help you fly", plus all the details for something that is already known... It's not because everybody is doing glorified marketing, which often results in being deceptive, that we have to be okay with it.
GordonS 7y ago
I think it's the marketing copy most people are taking issue with with. They tried a new design, which was horrible to use and had a high failure rate. They continued to claim the new keyboard was amazing, and stubbornly continued to use this crappy keyboard long after the problems were apparent. And now they are touting a "normal" keyboard mechanism as if they've invented something new and wonderful... only Apple could get away with such transparent BS.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  "The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" It seems like you're reading into the text what isn't even there.
  - oblio 7y ago
    > What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" Uh... "refined"?
    - justwalt 7y ago
      In fairness, that keyboard switch style hasn’t had 1mm off travel before, so don’t you think “refined” is somewhat accurate?
    - kbsletten 7y ago
      I read that as "elegant" not "made better". It's possible that people could read it either way.
      - brippalcharrid 7y ago
        Yes, that's by design; it's a purposefully ambiguous choice of words that be read either way depending on what the reader's subconscious wants to hear. Either way, they don't have to admit that they were wrong, customers that hated the old now now feel relieved and vindicated, and people are probably more likely to buy the new one. That particular choice of words is probably the result of millions of dollars of marketing psychology, focus groups and A/B testing.
johnchristopher 7y ago
> Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect. What ? No. They are telling us they refined it, not that they fixed their mistake. It's not perfect, it's lame and cheesy.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  Does refined not mean that they took out some of the bad parts? That's about as close as you can get to admission of a fuckup as you can get in sales copy
marcus_holmes 7y ago
To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". I think it would be amazing if the most valuable, most design-focused company in the world admitted to everyone that they made a mistake. It would do a lot towards allowing everyone else to make mistakes without beating themselves up over it. After all, if the thousands of specialist engineers, paid billions in salaries, given the best equipment in the world, in a company that really (and I mean really) values design, can make a mistake, then it's kinda OK that your home page looks a little crappy on mobile.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  They did that when they actually started fixing it[0]. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-program,news-27497.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-...
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    Wasn't that the dust problem, though? Admitting that there's a problem when people are taking out class-action lawsuits against you seems a little late to me. And again, rather than a "we're so sorry, we made a huge mistake" speech, it's more of a "we're such an amazing company, we're going to fix your faulty laptops for free!" speech.
- ksec 7y ago
  >To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". Exactly. In Steve Jobs days he would have either jokingly admit there was a mistake or at least say something that people dont like it ( hence admitting there is a problem ). The new Apple put up a big middle finger and didn't act until there are class action.
tunesmith 7y ago
Even with the fix, I'm ddisappointed in their response. II had a 2013 MBP that worked great for years and years, and was excited to finally get a maxed out MBP about eiighteen months ago. The ffirst year was great and then this damn keyboard started doing its thing. I'm deliberately leaving the keyboard errors in place for this comment, they aren't typos. Yes, they havee the keeyboard replaceement program for the enext 3-4 years. But then you have to be wiithout your workhorse for a week while they replace it, and then what, you'll probably have the same problems a year later. (Incidentally, I have a job switch coming up wiith some tiime off - my plan was to use that time to send in the laptop for repairs theen when my clieint isn't relying on my availability, but now that plan is shot wiith the Apple Stores and malls being closed.) And yes, I can fix this by just buying the 16", but this computer was expensive and was supposed to last me at least 3-5 years. I'm supposed to iincrease my spending to Apple? A sane program would be to buy back this lemon at a heffty price so I can buy the new one and be made whole.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Marketing spin is not clear communication. It does not deserve praise. It's not mandatory, either. None of: > MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments. says anything about "fixing problems that people wanted fixed" or "doing what people asked for." That would read: > We used a lower-travel keyboard with a butterfly mechanism and alternative arrow key layout on recent models, and you said you didn't like it. We listened. The MacBook Air now features a proven scissor mechanism with a return to 1mm travel and classic inverted-T arrow key layout. They're implying that they've come up with something new, which is a lie. That's not perfect.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  As far as I can tell, this is the first keyboard with 1mm of travel that Apple has made. Before the recent butterfly debacle, their keyboards had as low as 1.2mm travel (on the iMac keyboard) or more. The much-maligned butterfly design got down to 0.5mm travel. So this scissor design with 1mm of travel seems to be something new. The inverted-T arrow keys are not new, but the scissor mechanism itself is, a refinement of previous designs.
- apricot 7y ago
  To be completely honest, they should describe the keyboard as "a lot less bad than the previous keyboards, but not quite as good as the ones before them".

sunir 7y ago

They deserve flak and they are getting it. It doesn’t have to be logical. It is emotional. They also created an emotional brand. Somehow I think Apple can handle it. Anyone wasting energy complaining is only doing so because they are waiting to buy again. It makes as much sense defending them as it does yelling at them about a keyboard.

squiggleblaz 7y ago
I dunno, I used to buy Apples because they had great hardware for a fair price (premium, sure, but if you're in the market for a premium machine...), but my last two machines have been a Dell and a Surface. It's different trade offs, but '\_o_/` I was never wedded to their operating system anyway.
rapind 7y ago
I held off buying a new MBP replacement for two years now thanks to the massive criticism over the butterfly fiasco. I'd say the complaining was useful and had an impact. Not wasteful at all.

throw7337 7y ago

>Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. No, we moved on and do not care. There are many companies that make laptops and keyboards. 5 years too late.

eloisant 7y ago

Honestly, Apple's marketing has always been worse than the other companies when it comes to sell basic things as a revolutionary, life changing progress.

Retric 7y ago
IMO, when you see car companies 2020 model gets 3 more horsepower or 1 more MPG, it’s better to consider how difficult that was rather than simply expecting it. Even a slightly better toothbrush is a positive life change. We have normalized progress, but even seemingly incremental progress is making the world a better place. Further, it can take revolutionary change to maintain incremental improvements. Filling HDD with say Helium has a lot of knock on effects hidden by the spec sheet.

Amygaz 7y ago

The two sentence above clearly oversell the product: "refined", "delivers", "help you fly", plus all the details for something that is already known... It's not because everybody is doing glorified marketing, which often results in being deceptive, that we have to be okay with it.

GordonS 7y ago

I think it's the marketing copy most people are taking issue with with. They tried a new design, which was horrible to use and had a high failure rate. They continued to claim the new keyboard was amazing, and stubbornly continued to use this crappy keyboard long after the problems were apparent. And now they are touting a "normal" keyboard mechanism as if they've invented something new and wonderful... only Apple could get away with such transparent BS.

pwinnski 7y ago
"The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" It seems like you're reading into the text what isn't even there.
- oblio 7y ago
  > What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" Uh... "refined"?
  - justwalt 7y ago
    In fairness, that keyboard switch style hasn’t had 1mm off travel before, so don’t you think “refined” is somewhat accurate?
  - kbsletten 7y ago
    I read that as "elegant" not "made better". It's possible that people could read it either way.
    - brippalcharrid 7y ago
      Yes, that's by design; it's a purposefully ambiguous choice of words that be read either way depending on what the reader's subconscious wants to hear. Either way, they don't have to admit that they were wrong, customers that hated the old now now feel relieved and vindicated, and people are probably more likely to buy the new one. That particular choice of words is probably the result of millions of dollars of marketing psychology, focus groups and A/B testing.

johnchristopher 7y ago

> Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect. What ? No. They are telling us they refined it, not that they fixed their mistake. It's not perfect, it's lame and cheesy.

IggleSniggle 7y ago
Does refined not mean that they took out some of the bad parts? That's about as close as you can get to admission of a fuckup as you can get in sales copy

marcus_holmes 7y ago

To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". I think it would be amazing if the most valuable, most design-focused company in the world admitted to everyone that they made a mistake. It would do a lot towards allowing everyone else to make mistakes without beating themselves up over it. After all, if the thousands of specialist engineers, paid billions in salaries, given the best equipment in the world, in a company that really (and I mean really) values design, can make a mistake, then it's kinda OK that your home page looks a little crappy on mobile.

pwinnski 7y ago
They did that when they actually started fixing it[0]. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-program,news-27497.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-...
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  Wasn't that the dust problem, though? Admitting that there's a problem when people are taking out class-action lawsuits against you seems a little late to me. And again, rather than a "we're so sorry, we made a huge mistake" speech, it's more of a "we're such an amazing company, we're going to fix your faulty laptops for free!" speech.
ksec 7y ago
>To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". Exactly. In Steve Jobs days he would have either jokingly admit there was a mistake or at least say something that people dont like it ( hence admitting there is a problem ). The new Apple put up a big middle finger and didn't act until there are class action.

tunesmith 7y ago

Even with the fix, I'm ddisappointed in their response. II had a 2013 MBP that worked great for years and years, and was excited to finally get a maxed out MBP about eiighteen months ago. The ffirst year was great and then this damn keyboard started doing its thing. I'm deliberately leaving the keyboard errors in place for this comment, they aren't typos. Yes, they havee the keeyboard replaceement program for the enext 3-4 years. But then you have to be wiithout your workhorse for a week while they replace it, and then what, you'll probably have the same problems a year later. (Incidentally, I have a job switch coming up wiith some tiime off - my plan was to use that time to send in the laptop for repairs theen when my clieint isn't relying on my availability, but now that plan is shot wiith the Apple Stores and malls being closed.) And yes, I can fix this by just buying the 16", but this computer was expensive and was supposed to last me at least 3-5 years. I'm supposed to iincrease my spending to Apple? A sane program would be to buy back this lemon at a heffty price so I can buy the new one and be made whole.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago

Marketing spin is not clear communication. It does not deserve praise. It's not mandatory, either. None of: > MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments. says anything about "fixing problems that people wanted fixed" or "doing what people asked for." That would read: > We used a lower-travel keyboard with a butterfly mechanism and alternative arrow key layout on recent models, and you said you didn't like it. We listened. The MacBook Air now features a proven scissor mechanism with a return to 1mm travel and classic inverted-T arrow key layout. They're implying that they've come up with something new, which is a lie. That's not perfect.

pwinnski 7y ago
As far as I can tell, this is the first keyboard with 1mm of travel that Apple has made. Before the recent butterfly debacle, their keyboards had as low as 1.2mm travel (on the iMac keyboard) or more. The much-maligned butterfly design got down to 0.5mm travel. So this scissor design with 1mm of travel seems to be something new. The inverted-T arrow keys are not new, but the scissor mechanism itself is, a refinement of previous designs.
apricot 7y ago
To be completely honest, they should describe the keyboard as "a lot less bad than the previous keyboards, but not quite as good as the ones before them".