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The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly throug

by cytzol 7y ago

The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments. This isn't progress. This is the baseline. Apple have gone from bad to OK, and they're celebrating as though they've achieved something amazing.

dev_tty01 7y ago
We all (most of us anyway) wanted them to go back to the scissor design. Are we going to now complain that they did what the community has been begging them to do? Was butterfly a mistake? Yes. Were they slow to correct the issue? Yes. Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. As far as talking about it being amazing, its called marketing spin. This is how it works. However, those two sentences do not say anything about it being amazing. It simply focuses on the positive features of the keyboard. The two sentences above clearly communicate to mac users that the company has fixed the problems that people wanted fixed. Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect.
- sunir 7y ago
  They deserve flak and they are getting it. It doesn’t have to be logical. It is emotional. They also created an emotional brand. Somehow I think Apple can handle it. Anyone wasting energy complaining is only doing so because they are waiting to buy again. It makes as much sense defending them as it does yelling at them about a keyboard.
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    I dunno, I used to buy Apples because they had great hardware for a fair price (premium, sure, but if you're in the market for a premium machine...), but my last two machines have been a Dell and a Surface. It's different trade offs, but '\_o_/` I was never wedded to their operating system anyway.
  - rapind 7y ago
    I held off buying a new MBP replacement for two years now thanks to the massive criticism over the butterfly fiasco. I'd say the complaining was useful and had an impact. Not wasteful at all.
- throw7337 7y ago
  >Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. No, we moved on and do not care. There are many companies that make laptops and keyboards. 5 years too late.
- eloisant 7y ago
  Honestly, Apple's marketing has always been worse than the other companies when it comes to sell basic things as a revolutionary, life changing progress.
  - Retric 7y ago
    IMO, when you see car companies 2020 model gets 3 more horsepower or 1 more MPG, it’s better to consider how difficult that was rather than simply expecting it. Even a slightly better toothbrush is a positive life change. We have normalized progress, but even seemingly incremental progress is making the world a better place. Further, it can take revolutionary change to maintain incremental improvements. Filling HDD with say Helium has a lot of knock on effects hidden by the spec sheet.
- Amygaz 7y ago
  The two sentence above clearly oversell the product: "refined", "delivers", "help you fly", plus all the details for something that is already known... It's not because everybody is doing glorified marketing, which often results in being deceptive, that we have to be okay with it.
- GordonS 7y ago
  I think it's the marketing copy most people are taking issue with with. They tried a new design, which was horrible to use and had a high failure rate. They continued to claim the new keyboard was amazing, and stubbornly continued to use this crappy keyboard long after the problems were apparent. And now they are touting a "normal" keyboard mechanism as if they've invented something new and wonderful... only Apple could get away with such transparent BS.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    "The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" It seems like you're reading into the text what isn't even there.
    - oblio 7y ago
      > What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" Uh... "refined"?
      - justwalt 7y ago
        In fairness, that keyboard switch style hasn’t had 1mm off travel before, so don’t you think “refined” is somewhat accurate?
      - kbsletten 7y ago
        I read that as "elegant" not "made better". It's possible that people could read it either way.
        brippalcharrid 7y ago
        Yes, that's by design; it's a purposefully ambiguous choice of words that be read either way depending on what the reader's subconscious wants to hear. Either way, they don't have to admit that they were wrong, customers that hated the old now now feel relieved and vindicated, and people are probably more likely to buy the new one. That particular choice of words is probably the result of millions of dollars of marketing psychology, focus groups and A/B testing.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  > Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect. What ? No. They are telling us they refined it, not that they fixed their mistake. It's not perfect, it's lame and cheesy.
  - IggleSniggle 7y ago
    Does refined not mean that they took out some of the bad parts? That's about as close as you can get to admission of a fuckup as you can get in sales copy
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". I think it would be amazing if the most valuable, most design-focused company in the world admitted to everyone that they made a mistake. It would do a lot towards allowing everyone else to make mistakes without beating themselves up over it. After all, if the thousands of specialist engineers, paid billions in salaries, given the best equipment in the world, in a company that really (and I mean really) values design, can make a mistake, then it's kinda OK that your home page looks a little crappy on mobile.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    They did that when they actually started fixing it[0]. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-program,news-27497.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-...
    - marcus_holmes 7y ago
      Wasn't that the dust problem, though? Admitting that there's a problem when people are taking out class-action lawsuits against you seems a little late to me. And again, rather than a "we're so sorry, we made a huge mistake" speech, it's more of a "we're such an amazing company, we're going to fix your faulty laptops for free!" speech.
  - ksec 7y ago
    >To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". Exactly. In Steve Jobs days he would have either jokingly admit there was a mistake or at least say something that people dont like it ( hence admitting there is a problem ). The new Apple put up a big middle finger and didn't act until there are class action.
- tunesmith 7y ago
  Even with the fix, I'm ddisappointed in their response. II had a 2013 MBP that worked great for years and years, and was excited to finally get a maxed out MBP about eiighteen months ago. The ffirst year was great and then this damn keyboard started doing its thing. I'm deliberately leaving the keyboard errors in place for this comment, they aren't typos. Yes, they havee the keeyboard replaceement program for the enext 3-4 years. But then you have to be wiithout your workhorse for a week while they replace it, and then what, you'll probably have the same problems a year later. (Incidentally, I have a job switch coming up wiith some tiime off - my plan was to use that time to send in the laptop for repairs theen when my clieint isn't relying on my availability, but now that plan is shot wiith the Apple Stores and malls being closed.) And yes, I can fix this by just buying the 16", but this computer was expensive and was supposed to last me at least 3-5 years. I'm supposed to iincrease my spending to Apple? A sane program would be to buy back this lemon at a heffty price so I can buy the new one and be made whole.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  Marketing spin is not clear communication. It does not deserve praise. It's not mandatory, either. None of: > MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments. says anything about "fixing problems that people wanted fixed" or "doing what people asked for." That would read: > We used a lower-travel keyboard with a butterfly mechanism and alternative arrow key layout on recent models, and you said you didn't like it. We listened. The MacBook Air now features a proven scissor mechanism with a return to 1mm travel and classic inverted-T arrow key layout. They're implying that they've come up with something new, which is a lie. That's not perfect.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    As far as I can tell, this is the first keyboard with 1mm of travel that Apple has made. Before the recent butterfly debacle, their keyboards had as low as 1.2mm travel (on the iMac keyboard) or more. The much-maligned butterfly design got down to 0.5mm travel. So this scissor design with 1mm of travel seems to be something new. The inverted-T arrow keys are not new, but the scissor mechanism itself is, a refinement of previous designs.
  - apricot 7y ago
    To be completely honest, they should describe the keyboard as "a lot less bad than the previous keyboards, but not quite as good as the ones before them".
deleted 7y ago
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gowld 7y ago
Imagine a country where a terrible leader comes to power, and the nation regresses for years. Then a new leader arises and reverses course. Does the country celebrate and boast?
bjoli 7y ago
Their (very) old keyboards are still amazing to type on. They went from high quality mechanical switches to bad rubber domes to okish rubber domes. The current magic keyboard is actually not bad, but I would still prefer the old alps switches.
- partisan 7y ago
  I completely agree. My 2014 MacBook Pro purchased refurbished still has the best keyboard of all the devices I use. The Lenovo X1 I use for work is a close second. What I noticed in the image that made me excited about this device is the function keys. If the 16in MBP had function keys, I probably would have purchased one already. I do wonder if the top spec of the new MBA is going to hold up to my usage though.
  - bjoli 7y ago
    The mechanical ones are ancient by that standard. The Alps switches ones are pre transparent imac :)
  - mgkimsal 7y ago
    not sure if the 2015 was any different from 2014, but it's still my favorite.
solat 7y ago
It is progress. Apple runs a monopoly, people seem to not be able to escape (I'm on Windows) and Apple has struggled to fix an utterly broken keyboard for 3 or more years. So, finally they did this on an entry model. Even I who gave up on Apple thought, hey what a nice machine.
- doodpants 7y ago
  It's not so much progress, as reversal of a regress.
donw 7y ago
So is this a not-broken keyboard design? I have the (now) previous-generation Air, and need a keyboard repair. Would be seriously tempted to just buy a new one if I was confident the keyboard wasn't absolute garbage. Typing on it was fine when it worked, but it double-spaces, and a couple of the other keys are now wonky. Never had a keyboard die on me before this -- Mac or otherwise.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Supposedly. I don’t think anyone has any of these yet.
- bun_at_work 7y ago
  This is essentially the same type of keyboard from before the crappy design you ended up with. I've had a MBP 2014 since release with that keyboard and I love it. I can't express enough how good it feels to type on (although some personal preference). I also tried out the new version of that keyboard on the recently-released MBP. It feels almost the exact same as the old one, just a slightly more shallow depth. Hopefully that's helpful.
  - gurkendoktor 7y ago
    Conversely, I went from a MBP 2015 to the 16" model, and I think the "fixed" keyboard is still terrible. I've used all sorts of keyboard, and it's the first one where I regularly have doubled or missing letters when typing. Maybe I'm not hammering the keys hard enough?
- dangus 7y ago
  Yes, this is what you should do: 1. Get your keyboard repaired (free, I assume) 2. Sell that thing online 3. Get this one. I mean, this has a quad-core option, too. It's a no-brainer better machine. I have the 16-inch that has the same keyboard mechanism as this. It's 100% an evolution on the previous design. While it is early, it's a proven design and there's no chance of it having any of the issues that the butterfly keyboard did. I feel like my 16-inch is the computer I intended to buy in 2016. If you can afford the upgrade cost after you sell your current one, you won't regret it.
x3haloed 7y ago
Woohoo for the new arrow keys!
Grustaf 7y ago
No, they're not saying it's innovative or amazing, they are simply calling it a "responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience", which I guess is true.
- dsego 7y ago
  Thereby implying that the only problem with the old new butterfly keyboard was the loud typing sound and not reliability.
  - foldr 7y ago
    No, because they're saying it's a refined scissor mechanism, i.e., a refined version of the old, pre-butterfly keyboard. This is 100% true.
deleted 7y ago
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dangus 7y ago
I'm looking at this in a bit of a different way: - Apple knows that at the very least, some set of vocal people don't like the previous keyboard. They also know that many of their customers had to get repairs, even if they liked the keyboard. Those customers might understand that "butterfly = bad" - They need to tell people that they've fixed the problem but don't want to do so in a way that says "the last product was bad" (so they can't just say nothing about it) I think we should also place some fault on other manufacturers for just blindly attempting to do what Apple does without thinking: check out the latest XPS 13. They've implemented the same arrow setup as Apple's butterfly keyboards. And yet, I haven't seen a single review online that criticizes the XPS for this choice.
hoorayimhelping 7y ago
Ok. How should they communicate this? "We've gone back to where we were three years ago after a mistake, sorry." I don't understand what the issue is with Apple trying to sell their products. It sounds like people here are upset that marketing and sales exists, and that they use language to try to make their products seem impressive, and that consumers aren't rational when it comes to buying things.
- mkagenius 7y ago
  Coz, it's a lie, half truths are lie essentially, I agree its a sales tactic but nonetheless it's a lie.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    Which part of those two sentences is a lie? "The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." Is any of that false? How do we know?
    - squiggleblaz 7y ago
      "Half truths are lies". The pp is saying they're lying because they didn't admit fault. What's wrong with a company trying to sell a product by outright honestly saying "yeah, we tried to balance usability and thinness, and we went too far, we heard your complaints, and we've gone back and refined our old designs". I mean, they can tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in an even more markety way if direct honesty is too much.
      - foldr 7y ago
        >The pp is saying they're lying because they didn't admit fault. They pretty clearly admitted fault when they offered free out of warranty repairs for keyboard issues.
      - pwinnski 7y ago
        This seems like nonsense. Must they admit fault in every communication for the next three years? Must they use specific words while admitting fault? There's nothing wrong with a company saying "we screwed up." Which Apple has done already. There'a also nothing wrong with a company saying, "This keyboard is great," if it is in fact great.
zarmin 7y ago
I think you're underselling how truly revolutionary the inverted-T arrow keys are. I hear they help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments.
KIFulgore 7y ago
Only in the marketing world does "Magic" == "functional".
geodel 7y ago
Whole world seems to be celebrating that Javascript desktop turds runs 10 times slower and consumes 10 times more resources than 20 year old native applications. So I guess everything is worth celebrating.
- yepthatsreality 7y ago
  Yeah but it's so easy to code my crappy app now! I don't have to understand anything, just copy-paste from Stackoverflow!
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  In the olden days, we complained about apps that used all our ram. Nowadays, we complain about Firefox or proprietary web browsers using all our ram, when in reality they're doing the best they can. The task manager can't show users who's actually to blame, so lazy devs get the glory while hardworking browser developers cop the flack.
  - jyrkesh 7y ago
    Except that when I use the old apps that used to use all my RAM, now they don't because I have more RAM. I don't blame the browser vendors (except maybe that V8 made JS juuuuuust good enough to make something like Node viable). They took a thing that run slow for everyone, and they made it faster. I do blame application developers for writing everything to the web because it's there. There's instances of folks doing better than most in Electron/JS land, but it's still nothing close to the native or even managed Java/C# apps of yesteryear. Really I should just link to my last Electron rant, seems like they're getting closer together nowadays... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598148
S_A_P 7y ago
So much this- I struggled with my butterfly mbp for about 18 months all under the guise of "its a stout machine, the keyboard isnt that bad" or "I can use an external keyboard". Then I grew tired of the macbook fan noise when running windows 10 and debugging with the touch bar. I ordered a surface 3 laptop and immediately realized how important a nice keyboard is to me. Its tactile, its got enough travel, the keys feel nice. I type with fewer errors and I work faster. Anyone want to buy a 2018 macbook pro with 6 core and 32gb ram?
rsynnott 7y ago
If you liked the stability of the butterfly switches, but the travel and reliability of the scissor switches, the new thing is really pretty nice, and is arguably an advance over both.
emsy 7y ago
This is below baseline. I still don't understand why it's important for them to make compromises at the keyboard, which is an essential part of the notebook experience. A keyboard has keys, keys have a certain height. Get over it Apple. I've tried the latest 3 generations of keyboards and the 2015 still comes out on top. It looks as if Apple's engineers are trying to fight the keyboard. Macbook's keyboard were almost unquestionably the best among notebooks. Now we're happy if they're not crap. Of course this is all personal opinion and I'm sure Apple tests these things extensively and only release them if they make for a significant improvement. They wouldn't release a broken keyboard and deny they're at fault for years, right?
endorphone 7y ago
It's amazing how well received the "I'm cynical and world-weary" angle plays on Hacker News. "This is the baseline. Apple have gone from bad to OK" Apple's scissor keyboard is pretty broadly considered the best in the industry by a country mile. Their butterfly mechanism was a bad misstep (I mean...almost indistinguishable from my Yoga 720, but compared to prior Apple keyboards), but saying that they went from "bad" to "OK" is just nonsense. "and they're celebrating" Advertising doing what advertising does. So brave on HN to point out that marketing is marketing-ee. Are you also telling me that the new car isn't going to make me an adventure seeking extrovert?
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  > Advertising doing what advertising does. So brave on HN to point out that marketing is marketing-ee. Are you also telling me that the new car isn't going to make me an adventure seeking extrovert? Why is that acceptable? If you lie or misrepresent the truth in almost any other field, you get criticised. But when marketers do it, they're immune. That's just weird.
  - closetohome 7y ago
    False advertising is, in fact, illegal. If in your opinion they've crossed the line into actual factual inaccuracy, it's your right to take legal action against them, or request that your state's attorney general do so on your behalf.
iso1631 7y ago
They've turned around. That is amazing for any company, especially apple.
Razengan 7y ago
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Some people just seem to choose a target for life (like the Favored Enemy of a Ranger from Dungeons & Dragons) and never give it a break, no matter what. I suspect that even if Apple comes out with the best keyboard that mankind is ever going to make, some of you are still going to be angry about how they removed optical drives 4000 years ago.
rconti 7y ago
Nope, that's exactly what I wanted to hear before buying. Rather than just saying they improved it, they explicitly pointed out it has the keyboard you want from the 16" MBP. >MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. That saved me from having to google "hey, is the 'new magic keyboard' the thing in the 16" MBP that I've been waiting for in the Air and 13" MBP, or is it something else entirely".
acchow 7y ago
I, along with many people I know, love the scissor keyboard.

by cytzol 7y ago

dev_tty01 7y ago

We all (most of us anyway) wanted them to go back to the scissor design. Are we going to now complain that they did what the community has been begging them to do? Was butterfly a mistake? Yes. Were they slow to correct the issue? Yes. Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. As far as talking about it being amazing, its called marketing spin. This is how it works. However, those two sentences do not say anything about it being amazing. It simply focuses on the positive features of the keyboard. The two sentences above clearly communicate to mac users that the company has fixed the problems that people wanted fixed. Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect.

sunir 7y ago
They deserve flak and they are getting it. It doesn’t have to be logical. It is emotional. They also created an emotional brand. Somehow I think Apple can handle it. Anyone wasting energy complaining is only doing so because they are waiting to buy again. It makes as much sense defending them as it does yelling at them about a keyboard.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  I dunno, I used to buy Apples because they had great hardware for a fair price (premium, sure, but if you're in the market for a premium machine...), but my last two machines have been a Dell and a Surface. It's different trade offs, but '\_o_/` I was never wedded to their operating system anyway.
- rapind 7y ago
  I held off buying a new MBP replacement for two years now thanks to the massive criticism over the butterfly fiasco. I'd say the complaining was useful and had an impact. Not wasteful at all.
throw7337 7y ago
>Now that they fixed it we should be happy about it. No, we moved on and do not care. There are many companies that make laptops and keyboards. 5 years too late.
eloisant 7y ago
Honestly, Apple's marketing has always been worse than the other companies when it comes to sell basic things as a revolutionary, life changing progress.
- Retric 7y ago
  IMO, when you see car companies 2020 model gets 3 more horsepower or 1 more MPG, it’s better to consider how difficult that was rather than simply expecting it. Even a slightly better toothbrush is a positive life change. We have normalized progress, but even seemingly incremental progress is making the world a better place. Further, it can take revolutionary change to maintain incremental improvements. Filling HDD with say Helium has a lot of knock on effects hidden by the spec sheet.
Amygaz 7y ago
The two sentence above clearly oversell the product: "refined", "delivers", "help you fly", plus all the details for something that is already known... It's not because everybody is doing glorified marketing, which often results in being deceptive, that we have to be okay with it.
GordonS 7y ago
I think it's the marketing copy most people are taking issue with with. They tried a new design, which was horrible to use and had a high failure rate. They continued to claim the new keyboard was amazing, and stubbornly continued to use this crappy keyboard long after the problems were apparent. And now they are touting a "normal" keyboard mechanism as if they've invented something new and wonderful... only Apple could get away with such transparent BS.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  "The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" It seems like you're reading into the text what isn't even there.
  - oblio 7y ago
    > What in that says "invented" "new" or even "wonderful?" Uh... "refined"?
    - justwalt 7y ago
      In fairness, that keyboard switch style hasn’t had 1mm off travel before, so don’t you think “refined” is somewhat accurate?
    - kbsletten 7y ago
      I read that as "elegant" not "made better". It's possible that people could read it either way.
      - brippalcharrid 7y ago
        Yes, that's by design; it's a purposefully ambiguous choice of words that be read either way depending on what the reader's subconscious wants to hear. Either way, they don't have to admit that they were wrong, customers that hated the old now now feel relieved and vindicated, and people are probably more likely to buy the new one. That particular choice of words is probably the result of millions of dollars of marketing psychology, focus groups and A/B testing.
johnchristopher 7y ago
> Did you really expect a bunch of public self-flaggelation? They are telling us clearly that they did what we asked for. Perfect. What ? No. They are telling us they refined it, not that they fixed their mistake. It's not perfect, it's lame and cheesy.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  Does refined not mean that they took out some of the bad parts? That's about as close as you can get to admission of a fuckup as you can get in sales copy
marcus_holmes 7y ago
To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". I think it would be amazing if the most valuable, most design-focused company in the world admitted to everyone that they made a mistake. It would do a lot towards allowing everyone else to make mistakes without beating themselves up over it. After all, if the thousands of specialist engineers, paid billions in salaries, given the best equipment in the world, in a company that really (and I mean really) values design, can make a mistake, then it's kinda OK that your home page looks a little crappy on mobile.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  They did that when they actually started fixing it[0]. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-program,news-27497.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-macbook-keyboard-service-...
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    Wasn't that the dust problem, though? Admitting that there's a problem when people are taking out class-action lawsuits against you seems a little late to me. And again, rather than a "we're so sorry, we made a huge mistake" speech, it's more of a "we're such an amazing company, we're going to fix your faulty laptops for free!" speech.
- ksec 7y ago
  >To be honest, yes, I'd like them to say "we messed up, and we finally recognised that, so we're fixing it". Exactly. In Steve Jobs days he would have either jokingly admit there was a mistake or at least say something that people dont like it ( hence admitting there is a problem ). The new Apple put up a big middle finger and didn't act until there are class action.
tunesmith 7y ago
Even with the fix, I'm ddisappointed in their response. II had a 2013 MBP that worked great for years and years, and was excited to finally get a maxed out MBP about eiighteen months ago. The ffirst year was great and then this damn keyboard started doing its thing. I'm deliberately leaving the keyboard errors in place for this comment, they aren't typos. Yes, they havee the keeyboard replaceement program for the enext 3-4 years. But then you have to be wiithout your workhorse for a week while they replace it, and then what, you'll probably have the same problems a year later. (Incidentally, I have a job switch coming up wiith some tiime off - my plan was to use that time to send in the laptop for repairs theen when my clieint isn't relying on my availability, but now that plan is shot wiith the Apple Stores and malls being closed.) And yes, I can fix this by just buying the 16", but this computer was expensive and was supposed to last me at least 3-5 years. I'm supposed to iincrease my spending to Apple? A sane program would be to buy back this lemon at a heffty price so I can buy the new one and be made whole.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Marketing spin is not clear communication. It does not deserve praise. It's not mandatory, either. None of: > MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience. The inverted-T arrow keys help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments. says anything about "fixing problems that people wanted fixed" or "doing what people asked for." That would read: > We used a lower-travel keyboard with a butterfly mechanism and alternative arrow key layout on recent models, and you said you didn't like it. We listened. The MacBook Air now features a proven scissor mechanism with a return to 1mm travel and classic inverted-T arrow key layout. They're implying that they've come up with something new, which is a lie. That's not perfect.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  As far as I can tell, this is the first keyboard with 1mm of travel that Apple has made. Before the recent butterfly debacle, their keyboards had as low as 1.2mm travel (on the iMac keyboard) or more. The much-maligned butterfly design got down to 0.5mm travel. So this scissor design with 1mm of travel seems to be something new. The inverted-T arrow keys are not new, but the scissor mechanism itself is, a refinement of previous designs.
- apricot 7y ago
  To be completely honest, they should describe the keyboard as "a lot less bad than the previous keyboards, but not quite as good as the ones before them".

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gowld 7y ago

Imagine a country where a terrible leader comes to power, and the nation regresses for years. Then a new leader arises and reverses course. Does the country celebrate and boast?

bjoli 7y ago

Their (very) old keyboards are still amazing to type on. They went from high quality mechanical switches to bad rubber domes to okish rubber domes. The current magic keyboard is actually not bad, but I would still prefer the old alps switches.

partisan 7y ago
I completely agree. My 2014 MacBook Pro purchased refurbished still has the best keyboard of all the devices I use. The Lenovo X1 I use for work is a close second. What I noticed in the image that made me excited about this device is the function keys. If the 16in MBP had function keys, I probably would have purchased one already. I do wonder if the top spec of the new MBA is going to hold up to my usage though.
- bjoli 7y ago
  The mechanical ones are ancient by that standard. The Alps switches ones are pre transparent imac :)
- mgkimsal 7y ago
  not sure if the 2015 was any different from 2014, but it's still my favorite.

solat 7y ago

It is progress. Apple runs a monopoly, people seem to not be able to escape (I'm on Windows) and Apple has struggled to fix an utterly broken keyboard for 3 or more years. So, finally they did this on an entry model. Even I who gave up on Apple thought, hey what a nice machine.

doodpants 7y ago
It's not so much progress, as reversal of a regress.

donw 7y ago

So is this a not-broken keyboard design? I have the (now) previous-generation Air, and need a keyboard repair. Would be seriously tempted to just buy a new one if I was confident the keyboard wasn't absolute garbage. Typing on it was fine when it worked, but it double-spaces, and a couple of the other keys are now wonky. Never had a keyboard die on me before this -- Mac or otherwise.

saagarjha 7y ago
Supposedly. I don’t think anyone has any of these yet.
bun_at_work 7y ago
This is essentially the same type of keyboard from before the crappy design you ended up with. I've had a MBP 2014 since release with that keyboard and I love it. I can't express enough how good it feels to type on (although some personal preference). I also tried out the new version of that keyboard on the recently-released MBP. It feels almost the exact same as the old one, just a slightly more shallow depth. Hopefully that's helpful.
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  Conversely, I went from a MBP 2015 to the 16" model, and I think the "fixed" keyboard is still terrible. I've used all sorts of keyboard, and it's the first one where I regularly have doubled or missing letters when typing. Maybe I'm not hammering the keys hard enough?
dangus 7y ago
Yes, this is what you should do: 1. Get your keyboard repaired (free, I assume) 2. Sell that thing online 3. Get this one. I mean, this has a quad-core option, too. It's a no-brainer better machine. I have the 16-inch that has the same keyboard mechanism as this. It's 100% an evolution on the previous design. While it is early, it's a proven design and there's no chance of it having any of the issues that the butterfly keyboard did. I feel like my 16-inch is the computer I intended to buy in 2016. If you can afford the upgrade cost after you sell your current one, you won't regret it.

x3haloed 7y ago

Woohoo for the new arrow keys!

Grustaf 7y ago

No, they're not saying it's innovative or amazing, they are simply calling it a "responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience", which I guess is true.

dsego 7y ago
Thereby implying that the only problem with the old new butterfly keyboard was the loud typing sound and not reliability.
- foldr 7y ago
  No, because they're saying it's a refined scissor mechanism, i.e., a refined version of the old, pre-butterfly keyboard. This is 100% true.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dangus 7y ago

I'm looking at this in a bit of a different way: - Apple knows that at the very least, some set of vocal people don't like the previous keyboard. They also know that many of their customers had to get repairs, even if they liked the keyboard. Those customers might understand that "butterfly = bad" - They need to tell people that they've fixed the problem but don't want to do so in a way that says "the last product was bad" (so they can't just say nothing about it) I think we should also place some fault on other manufacturers for just blindly attempting to do what Apple does without thinking: check out the latest XPS 13. They've implemented the same arrow setup as Apple's butterfly keyboards. And yet, I haven't seen a single review online that criticizes the XPS for this choice.

hoorayimhelping 7y ago

Ok. How should they communicate this? "We've gone back to where we were three years ago after a mistake, sorry." I don't understand what the issue is with Apple trying to sell their products. It sounds like people here are upset that marketing and sales exists, and that they use language to try to make their products seem impressive, and that consumers aren't rational when it comes to buying things.

mkagenius 7y ago
Coz, it's a lie, half truths are lie essentially, I agree its a sales tactic but nonetheless it's a lie.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  Which part of those two sentences is a lie? "The refined scissor mechanism with 1 mm of travel delivers a responsive, comfortable, and quiet typing experience." Is any of that false? How do we know?
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    "Half truths are lies". The pp is saying they're lying because they didn't admit fault. What's wrong with a company trying to sell a product by outright honestly saying "yeah, we tried to balance usability and thinness, and we went too far, we heard your complaints, and we've gone back and refined our old designs". I mean, they can tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in an even more markety way if direct honesty is too much.
    - foldr 7y ago
      >The pp is saying they're lying because they didn't admit fault. They pretty clearly admitted fault when they offered free out of warranty repairs for keyboard issues.
    - pwinnski 7y ago
      This seems like nonsense. Must they admit fault in every communication for the next three years? Must they use specific words while admitting fault? There's nothing wrong with a company saying "we screwed up." Which Apple has done already. There'a also nothing wrong with a company saying, "This keyboard is great," if it is in fact great.

zarmin 7y ago

I think you're underselling how truly revolutionary the inverted-T arrow keys are. I hear they help you fly through lines of code, spreadsheets, or game environments.

KIFulgore 7y ago

Only in the marketing world does "Magic" == "functional".

geodel 7y ago

Whole world seems to be celebrating that Javascript desktop turds runs 10 times slower and consumes 10 times more resources than 20 year old native applications. So I guess everything is worth celebrating.

yepthatsreality 7y ago
Yeah but it's so easy to code my crappy app now! I don't have to understand anything, just copy-paste from Stackoverflow!
squiggleblaz 7y ago
In the olden days, we complained about apps that used all our ram. Nowadays, we complain about Firefox or proprietary web browsers using all our ram, when in reality they're doing the best they can. The task manager can't show users who's actually to blame, so lazy devs get the glory while hardworking browser developers cop the flack.
- jyrkesh 7y ago
  Except that when I use the old apps that used to use all my RAM, now they don't because I have more RAM. I don't blame the browser vendors (except maybe that V8 made JS juuuuuust good enough to make something like Node viable). They took a thing that run slow for everyone, and they made it faster. I do blame application developers for writing everything to the web because it's there. There's instances of folks doing better than most in Electron/JS land, but it's still nothing close to the native or even managed Java/C# apps of yesteryear. Really I should just link to my last Electron rant, seems like they're getting closer together nowadays... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598148

S_A_P 7y ago

So much this- I struggled with my butterfly mbp for about 18 months all under the guise of "its a stout machine, the keyboard isnt that bad" or "I can use an external keyboard". Then I grew tired of the macbook fan noise when running windows 10 and debugging with the touch bar. I ordered a surface 3 laptop and immediately realized how important a nice keyboard is to me. Its tactile, its got enough travel, the keys feel nice. I type with fewer errors and I work faster. Anyone want to buy a 2018 macbook pro with 6 core and 32gb ram?

rsynnott 7y ago

If you liked the stability of the butterfly switches, but the travel and reliability of the scissor switches, the new thing is really pretty nice, and is arguably an advance over both.

emsy 7y ago

This is below baseline. I still don't understand why it's important for them to make compromises at the keyboard, which is an essential part of the notebook experience. A keyboard has keys, keys have a certain height. Get over it Apple. I've tried the latest 3 generations of keyboards and the 2015 still comes out on top. It looks as if Apple's engineers are trying to fight the keyboard. Macbook's keyboard were almost unquestionably the best among notebooks. Now we're happy if they're not crap. Of course this is all personal opinion and I'm sure Apple tests these things extensively and only release them if they make for a significant improvement. They wouldn't release a broken keyboard and deny they're at fault for years, right?

endorphone 7y ago

It's amazing how well received the "I'm cynical and world-weary" angle plays on Hacker News. "This is the baseline. Apple have gone from bad to OK" Apple's scissor keyboard is pretty broadly considered the best in the industry by a country mile. Their butterfly mechanism was a bad misstep (I mean...almost indistinguishable from my Yoga 720, but compared to prior Apple keyboards), but saying that they went from "bad" to "OK" is just nonsense. "and they're celebrating" Advertising doing what advertising does. So brave on HN to point out that marketing is marketing-ee. Are you also telling me that the new car isn't going to make me an adventure seeking extrovert?

squiggleblaz 7y ago
> Advertising doing what advertising does. So brave on HN to point out that marketing is marketing-ee. Are you also telling me that the new car isn't going to make me an adventure seeking extrovert? Why is that acceptable? If you lie or misrepresent the truth in almost any other field, you get criticised. But when marketers do it, they're immune. That's just weird.
- closetohome 7y ago
  False advertising is, in fact, illegal. If in your opinion they've crossed the line into actual factual inaccuracy, it's your right to take legal action against them, or request that your state's attorney general do so on your behalf.

iso1631 7y ago

They've turned around. That is amazing for any company, especially apple.

Razengan 7y ago

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Some people just seem to choose a target for life (like the Favored Enemy of a Ranger from Dungeons & Dragons) and never give it a break, no matter what. I suspect that even if Apple comes out with the best keyboard that mankind is ever going to make, some of you are still going to be angry about how they removed optical drives 4000 years ago.

rconti 7y ago

Nope, that's exactly what I wanted to hear before buying. Rather than just saying they improved it, they explicitly pointed out it has the keyboard you want from the 16" MBP. >MacBook Air now features the new Magic Keyboard, first seen on the 16-inch MacBook Pro. That saved me from having to google "hey, is the 'new magic keyboard' the thing in the 16" MBP that I've been waiting for in the Air and 13" MBP, or is it something else entirely".

acchow 7y ago

I, along with many people I know, love the scissor keyboard.