4 ms·

Tried Terminal Preview and Hyper and Alacritty to get a decent working terminal, finally ended up using SSH and PuTTY that actually looks okay and works okay. S

by kesor 7y ago

Tried Terminal Preview and Hyper and Alacritty to get a decent working terminal, finally ended up using SSH and PuTTY that actually looks okay and works okay. Still has problems with some unicode characters. But PuTTY is mature and had support for mouse since when? 10, 15 years ago?

qayxc 7y ago
You do realise the difference between a console and a terminal app? The terminal app is no replacement for PuTTY - they're orthogonal use cases. Terminal is a host app for text-based shells, no more, no less.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Console = terminal in my lingo. PuTTY is a console/terminal, plus an SSH client. What definitions are you using by comparison?
  - qayxc 7y ago
    In the software context PuTTY is a terminal program. It defines a virtual version of a hardware terminal and includes a defined character set, control sequences for displaying text, virtual screens (e.g. 80x40) and handling input (e.g. VT100). A console doesn't have these specific restrictions and definitions and is just a catch-all term for a (text-based) user interface for interacting with the OS, or a specific app. The Windows Terminal app is a host program for various consoles that in turn may implement terminal emulations and provide shells. It's not, however a terminal or console itself.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I... don't follow. Sounds like you're using "console" to mean TUI or CLI? That's not how I see anyone use it. Windows Terminal as far as I can see is just a program like xterm or GNOME Terminal. All of which are terminals or consoles, whichever you prefer to call them. They interact with TUI and CLI programs (another distinction we can shove aside here) like grep or nano or whatever.
      - qayxc 7y ago
        The term "console" isn't strictly defined. It's a catch-all term for CLIs an TUIs. Example usage outside your restricted view: computer games use consoles for interacting with the game engine (e.g. Half Life, Fallout 4, and countless others). A terminal is this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100#/media/File:DEC_VT100_terminal.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100#/media/File:DEC_VT100_te... And programs that implement terminals are virtual versions of the hardware. PuTTY and Hyper are SSH clients that pretend to be such terminal. xterm is also a terminal emulator, e.g. it emulates the hardware mentioned above. A console doesn't need to do this - in the context of software it's just a TUI/CLI window with no implied standards (screen size, input- and output sequences, etc.) behind it.
        mehrdadn 7y ago
        Oh come on. You're linking me a picture of a physical terminal from 1978 to tell me why "console" is a vague term? First, the whole terminal vs. terminal emulator (I can tell how much you're bending over just to make this distinction) war needs to stop already. It's a pretty irrelevant distinction, like the whole STL vs. "C++ Standard Library" war people like to start online just to win a linguistic battle. Nobody talking about terminals needs to go through the trouble of saying "virtual" terminal every single damn time, when there's no relevant distinction, no reason to bring up physical terminals from 1978, and every reason to believe it's clear what they mean. Second, your usage is definitely nonstandard. "Console" definitely does not mean "CLI". You can say "console program", but that only clarifies that you're being vague about it and don't care about the details. But "console" as a single-word noun is generally used to mean the same thing as a "terminal", which is a program an actual user uses to interact with text-based UIs (TUIs). It definitely is not used to just mean "CLI". CLI just means the program (like 'cat' or even 'sh') exposes a command-line interface, which normally implies text. But it literally doesn't need to have anything to do with a console (or a terminal)... or the presence of a UI or even a user in the first place. It can be entirely designed around and called as a sub-command in a GUI program with some argv[] and stdin. Hence the term command-line interface. That's its interface to everything else... to contrast with, say, an API (for compiling against), or an ABI (for linking against). There's no console or terminal or user that needs to be involved for every CLI program, and in normal usage there isn't even a user involved for many (most?) invocations of CLI programs. Whereas I dare say a GUI or TUI without an actual (human) user is an aberration like having a steering wheel and buttons in a car, without a way for a driver to get in. It's physically possible, but a completely abnormal design and (ab)usage. And lastly, if you're claiming "console" isn't strictly defined, then surely you can't turn around and tell someone "You do realise the difference between a console and a terminal app?" like that?! You're literally saying there isn't a strict definition for it and also telling someone off for not following whatever definition you have in mind?
  - JdeBP 7y ago
    That is not the widely-used terminology of Microsoft Windows where a console is a specific I/O mechanism, different from a terminal. * http://jdebp.uk./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html http://jdebp.uk./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html That the word "console" may denote other things, including a part of a pipe organ, is irrelevant. When discussing Windows Terminal one is almost always talking about the Microsoft Windows I/O mechanism, that's been around since Windows NT 3. * https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/console/consoles https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/console/consoles (The parenthetical "terminal" is a relatively recent addition to the doco. Not a wise one in my view, because it confuses more than it clarifies.)
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      That definition isn't really used consistently by Microsoft as far as I've been able to tell (though I think it was in the past). If you go by that traditional Win32 definition then "CreatePseudoConsole" should've been called CreatePseudoTerminal or CreatePTY... after all, Windows already has real console functionality; it doesn't need a pseudo-console. It needs a pseudo-TTY. And if you go by that definition then IMHO the "Windows Terminal" would need to be called the "Windows Console"... But honestly usage of the word "console" was clearly not what the parent's argument was about, which makes it kind of irrelevant to the whole discussion... Edit: Regarding your edit linking to where even Microsoft says "A console (or terminal) ...": you can dismiss it all you want, but I rest my case.
      - JdeBP 7y ago
        It's only irrelevant if your immediately equating console and terminal in response, and then asking for a definition, was irrelevant. Were you irrelevant? (-: I dismiss it because there's a mountain of usage contradicting that johnny-come-lately parenthetical. It's a well-known distinction; documented by lots of people, including me for about two decades now (actually longer, 2000 is simply when I wrote the FGA). And if your case is based upon the Win32 API function naming scheme, your case is founded on sand. I should not need to explain why to any Win32 developer. (-: In reality, the thing that ConPTY gives one is not a pseudo-terminal, because the wrapped applications are talking to consoles as far as they are concerned. It's not the simple implementation that I would have chosen (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818942). It's a much more ambitious architecture, that aims to let terminal I/O applications talk to Win32 consoles as if they were old 1980s terminals, to let 1990s and later Win32 console applications have their I/O driven via systems that ship terminal I/O, and to let both the old 1980s terminal I/O applications and the 1990s and later console I/O applications almost seamlessly share a common screen and input buffer.
zadjii 7y ago
Any specific complaints other than "has problems with some unicode characters"? Which characters in particular?
- kesor 7y ago
  In particular, "some" unicode characters. For example the "ghost" emoji works, but some (not all) of the powerline characters don't work. And I am using a font that is compatible with all these characters in other places (macOS).

by kesor 7y ago

qayxc 7y ago

You do realise the difference between a console and a terminal app? The terminal app is no replacement for PuTTY - they're orthogonal use cases. Terminal is a host app for text-based shells, no more, no less.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Console = terminal in my lingo. PuTTY is a console/terminal, plus an SSH client. What definitions are you using by comparison?
- qayxc 7y ago
  In the software context PuTTY is a terminal program. It defines a virtual version of a hardware terminal and includes a defined character set, control sequences for displaying text, virtual screens (e.g. 80x40) and handling input (e.g. VT100). A console doesn't have these specific restrictions and definitions and is just a catch-all term for a (text-based) user interface for interacting with the OS, or a specific app. The Windows Terminal app is a host program for various consoles that in turn may implement terminal emulations and provide shells. It's not, however a terminal or console itself.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    I... don't follow. Sounds like you're using "console" to mean TUI or CLI? That's not how I see anyone use it. Windows Terminal as far as I can see is just a program like xterm or GNOME Terminal. All of which are terminals or consoles, whichever you prefer to call them. They interact with TUI and CLI programs (another distinction we can shove aside here) like grep or nano or whatever.
    - qayxc 7y ago
      The term "console" isn't strictly defined. It's a catch-all term for CLIs an TUIs. Example usage outside your restricted view: computer games use consoles for interacting with the game engine (e.g. Half Life, Fallout 4, and countless others). A terminal is this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100#/media/File:DEC_VT100_terminal.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100#/media/File:DEC_VT100_te... And programs that implement terminals are virtual versions of the hardware. PuTTY and Hyper are SSH clients that pretend to be such terminal. xterm is also a terminal emulator, e.g. it emulates the hardware mentioned above. A console doesn't need to do this - in the context of software it's just a TUI/CLI window with no implied standards (screen size, input- and output sequences, etc.) behind it.
      - mehrdadn 7y ago
        Oh come on. You're linking me a picture of a physical terminal from 1978 to tell me why "console" is a vague term? First, the whole terminal vs. terminal emulator (I can tell how much you're bending over just to make this distinction) war needs to stop already. It's a pretty irrelevant distinction, like the whole STL vs. "C++ Standard Library" war people like to start online just to win a linguistic battle. Nobody talking about terminals needs to go through the trouble of saying "virtual" terminal every single damn time, when there's no relevant distinction, no reason to bring up physical terminals from 1978, and every reason to believe it's clear what they mean. Second, your usage is definitely nonstandard. "Console" definitely does not mean "CLI". You can say "console program", but that only clarifies that you're being vague about it and don't care about the details. But "console" as a single-word noun is generally used to mean the same thing as a "terminal", which is a program an actual user uses to interact with text-based UIs (TUIs). It definitely is not used to just mean "CLI". CLI just means the program (like 'cat' or even 'sh') exposes a command-line interface, which normally implies text. But it literally doesn't need to have anything to do with a console (or a terminal)... or the presence of a UI or even a user in the first place. It can be entirely designed around and called as a sub-command in a GUI program with some argv[] and stdin. Hence the term command-line interface. That's its interface to everything else... to contrast with, say, an API (for compiling against), or an ABI (for linking against). There's no console or terminal or user that needs to be involved for every CLI program, and in normal usage there isn't even a user involved for many (most?) invocations of CLI programs. Whereas I dare say a GUI or TUI without an actual (human) user is an aberration like having a steering wheel and buttons in a car, without a way for a driver to get in. It's physically possible, but a completely abnormal design and (ab)usage. And lastly, if you're claiming "console" isn't strictly defined, then surely you can't turn around and tell someone "You do realise the difference between a console and a terminal app?" like that?! You're literally saying there isn't a strict definition for it and also telling someone off for not following whatever definition you have in mind?
- JdeBP 7y ago
  That is not the widely-used terminology of Microsoft Windows where a console is a specific I/O mechanism, different from a terminal. * http://jdebp.uk./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html http://jdebp.uk./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html That the word "console" may denote other things, including a part of a pipe organ, is irrelevant. When discussing Windows Terminal one is almost always talking about the Microsoft Windows I/O mechanism, that's been around since Windows NT 3. * https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/console/consoles https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/console/consoles (The parenthetical "terminal" is a relatively recent addition to the doco. Not a wise one in my view, because it confuses more than it clarifies.)
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    That definition isn't really used consistently by Microsoft as far as I've been able to tell (though I think it was in the past). If you go by that traditional Win32 definition then "CreatePseudoConsole" should've been called CreatePseudoTerminal or CreatePTY... after all, Windows already has real console functionality; it doesn't need a pseudo-console. It needs a pseudo-TTY. And if you go by that definition then IMHO the "Windows Terminal" would need to be called the "Windows Console"... But honestly usage of the word "console" was clearly not what the parent's argument was about, which makes it kind of irrelevant to the whole discussion... Edit: Regarding your edit linking to where even Microsoft says "A console (or terminal) ...": you can dismiss it all you want, but I rest my case.
    - JdeBP 7y ago
      It's only irrelevant if your immediately equating console and terminal in response, and then asking for a definition, was irrelevant. Were you irrelevant? (-: I dismiss it because there's a mountain of usage contradicting that johnny-come-lately parenthetical. It's a well-known distinction; documented by lots of people, including me for about two decades now (actually longer, 2000 is simply when I wrote the FGA). And if your case is based upon the Win32 API function naming scheme, your case is founded on sand. I should not need to explain why to any Win32 developer. (-: In reality, the thing that ConPTY gives one is not a pseudo-terminal, because the wrapped applications are talking to consoles as far as they are concerned. It's not the simple implementation that I would have chosen (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818942). It's a much more ambitious architecture, that aims to let terminal I/O applications talk to Win32 consoles as if they were old 1980s terminals, to let 1990s and later Win32 console applications have their I/O driven via systems that ship terminal I/O, and to let both the old 1980s terminal I/O applications and the 1990s and later console I/O applications almost seamlessly share a common screen and input buffer.

zadjii 7y ago

Any specific complaints other than "has problems with some unicode characters"? Which characters in particular?

kesor 7y ago
In particular, "some" unicode characters. For example the "ghost" emoji works, but some (not all) of the powerline characters don't work. And I am using a font that is compatible with all these characters in other places (macOS).