5 ms·

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than nothing we mean reasonably effective. Going into close contact with a person who h

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than nothing we mean reasonably effective. Going into close contact with a person who has a known transmissible respiratory illness? N95 is minimum if you are a professional. And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion. Trying to massively reduce your risk when going out for supplies, or living with someone infected and have no other options? Surgical and homemade are vastly vastly vastly better than nothing. Extremely antisocial, harmful, dangerous? Shaming those wearing masks.

treparist 7y ago
Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. /Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good
- droithomme 7y ago
  "masks are completely useless" That is entirely false and you are posting damaging unscientific misinformation that harms people. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190903134732.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190903134732.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ Nice you could create a brand new just created account just to shitpost though, thanks for such effort to harm people. Why not post using your real HN account instead?
  - treparist 7y ago
    I though we are talking about COVID
  - dang 7y ago
    Don't attack others like this on HN. If someone is wrong, it's enough to provide correct information. Lashing out or trying to punish is harmful in more than one way: it damages the container and discredits the truth. (On the last point see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20truth%20discredit&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - droithomme 7y ago
      Fuck off dang you filthy piece of shit, ban my ass. I post valid scientific links proving my claims and you just suck the asses of your capitalist masters like Graham who are wringing their hands at the stock losses. YOU Dan, are responsible for the shitfest that is coming. You are a terrible lackey who is harming the world and your work is finally paying off for you. Enjoy your apocalypse. This motherfucker created a brand new account to post scientific misinformation and YOU Dan are supporting that. What the FUCK is wrong with you Dan? How insane and hateful and malevolent towards humanity can you be? BAN SCIENCE DAN. BAN IT. HARM PEOPLE, DESTROY MANKIND. THIS IS YOUR WAY.
      - creddit 7y ago
        You deserve to be banned for that first line. It's not about you posting studies.
        rolph 7y ago
        actually taken to an extreme he could deserve criminal charges.
        dang 7y ago
        Let's not go anywhere near that far.
        rolph 7y ago
        i get ya but it looks like an insinuated threat even if it was only postureing.
      - dntrkv 7y ago
        You should seek help.
- 1996 7y ago
  > Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good Evidence required. If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something. I read a comment the other day on how many efforts are impeded by the "quest for perfection" I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall. Don't just think about yourself. We are young and at no real risk of dying (0.1%, whatever). But we may cause the death of other people by simply contaminating more people. Small actions are better than doing nothing when facing exponential growth
  - gruez 7y ago
    >I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall. There's a psychological component to this. If a mask reduces the chance of infection (from daily contact) from 60% (random number) to 54%, I'm not going to bother, even though in aggregate it might make a huge difference. That's just me though. Also, I suspect half-measures like this are only effective in the early stages of the outbreak. For instance, if the viral load required for infection is 10 units (completely arbitrary), and your daily exposure is between 5 and 15, using a home-made mask that filters out 50% of viruses makes sense. However, if your daily exposure is 100 (presumably because everyone around you is infected), that 50% reduction isn't going to help you.
    - stubish 7y ago
      Your math assumes you are the only person using masks and have daily exposure. It breaks down when people are in isolation, which many of us now are. You are not out daily, so a 50% reduction is a 50% reduction, and with luck you never accumulate enough to get sick. If everyone wore masks, then every ones daily exposure would drop dramatically. You get 50% less intake, and infected people are emitting much less too. You have pretty much eliminated air born transmission, and can now focus on hands and eyes.
  - 7y ago
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  People were required by law to wear (mostly homemade; the main kind available) masks during the Spanish Flu. The link below gives an account of someone being shot by a public health officer for refusing to wear one. People took it very seriously back then as a way of preventing the spread, and it's not a bad idea for now. https://blog.genealogybank.com/the-history-of-the-great-1918-flu-pandemic-we-all-wore-masks.html https://blog.genealogybank.com/the-history-of-the-great-1918...
- nl 7y ago
  Homemade masks can be quite effective: http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468 http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468
bitL 7y ago
Surgical/homemade masks are working only if everybody is wearing them and they just impede transmission from the wearer to other people around. If you are the only person wearing such mask, you might not impede infection by much.
- droithomme 7y ago
  That's false and you are wrong and are posting dangerous misinformation that is harming society. If I am infected it protects others. If I am not infected it protects me.
  - bitL 7y ago
    Surgical masks are protecting patients not doctors. Please educate yourself. "The coronavirus is an upper respiratory virus and a surgical mask does not protect you from that kind of virus,” he said. “In fact, when people buy up these masks and hoard these masks then they might not be available for healthcare providers to use for patient care.” He said surgical masks are more effective on people who are already infected with an illness to keep them from infecting others rather than the other way around. He said other types of masks are not very effective at preventing you from getting sick either." https://www.wibc.com/news/local-indiana/surgeon-general-surgical-masks-wont-protect-you-from-the-coronavirus/ https://www.wibc.com/news/local-indiana/surgeon-general-surg...
    - gwright 7y ago
      > The coronavirus is an upper respiratory virus I thought it was a lower respiratory virus. I have no idea if that changes the efficacy of masks but...
      - Gibbon1 7y ago
        Probably a typo/fumble finger. Wading through all the dreck it seems that it causes viral pneumonia which is always bad news. Read just today that an advantage of any mask is it keeps people from transferring the virus from their fingers to their mouth and nose. A paper on the effectiveness of home made masks, like from tee shirt material says they are in no way a replacement for N95 masks but are better than nothing.
aaavl2821 7y ago
That may be true. However, if you are a normal citizen (not a healthcare worker) and you have N95 masks, you should strongly consider donating them to healthcare providers right now There are huge shortages of these masks in most US hospitals, even in areas with limited cases (cant speak for other coutnries but assume the same is true). HCPs are forced to either treat patients without wearing masks, guaranteeing high exposure to virus, or not care for patients If you are sheltering in place (as you should be doing if you are healhty), N95 masks wont help you much. THey will 100% help HCPs
threatofrain 7y ago
I think people should be allowed to wear masks, but I think that a lot of this information, including a very full vision about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 1 year, needs to come from CDC and other major institutions. Everyone on the ground having little ad hoc debates doesn't seem like it will converge onto a nationally organized solution. The fact that this is happening is symptomatic of the lack of leadership IMO, and so instead we're getting a disorganized cascade of businesses, institutions, mayors, and governors making ad hoc calls.
- austhrow743 7y ago
  CDC and other major institutions are looking out for the many not any one individual. They don't want there to be crazy private demand for masks competing with health care professionals.
  - karthikb 7y ago
    Yes, but dampening demand by spreading disinformation is incredibly dangerous. This latest paper: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-researchers-model-likely-impact/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-rese... Shows that the pandemic and associated social distancing measures may need to go on for months. How does the CDC switch messaging from saying that masks are useless to "well you should wear one now since you're going out..."
- dumdumdum123 7y ago
  HN has users from many countries, not just America. And general advice in my country is to wear mask around. Journals share step by step tutorials on how to make them. In some cities, public transport wont allow you in without one (you can improvise with scarf or something). Some stores and pharmacies wont allow you inside without one either. Politicians in photos and personalities wear masks and I think it is to normalize masks wearing. No one here wore mask one month ago, not it is most people outside. For me it was mind boggling when two days ago HN acted like the smart consensus was "masks do nothing, they are useless and don't wear it". It is not just "little ad hoc debates". It is also clashing between cultures I guess. There are people down threads actively convincing others not to wear masks and implying you are uneducated if you do. Unless that side of discussion stops spreading it, people who got the "wear masks for others and yourself" advice should be allowed to state their case too. I dont really know where "dont wear masks" meme is coming from, but it seems to be against everything I hear in my country. Person you are answering to might not be American either.
fortran77 7y ago
Here's a paper that shows that "homemade masks" made from tea cloths were reasonably effective https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ I'm using a homemade mask made from hepa filter material between two layers of dish towel material when I go out. I tie it around so it completely covers my nose and mouth and extents It will probably help if a person a few feet away coughs at me, as happened in the store today. And if I should cough, I may not infect someone else, if I am carrying. And it may keep me from accidentally touching my face
- wuunderbar 7y ago
  You got a picture of your homemade mask?
exhilaration 7y ago
And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion. I was talking to a doctor yesterday, from Silver Spring, Maryland, right outside of DC. They ran out of N95 masks some time ago and can't find any more. They're using simple surgical masks now. Complaining won't make those N95 masks appear any faster. What they're doing now is that each week there is one dedicated doctor who deals with Covid cases. This is to prevent the entire department from getting infected.

treparist 7y ago

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. /Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

droithomme 7y ago
"masks are completely useless" That is entirely false and you are posting damaging unscientific misinformation that harms people. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190903134732.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190903134732.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ Nice you could create a brand new just created account just to shitpost though, thanks for such effort to harm people. Why not post using your real HN account instead?
- treparist 7y ago
  I though we are talking about COVID
- dang 7y ago
  Don't attack others like this on HN. If someone is wrong, it's enough to provide correct information. Lashing out or trying to punish is harmful in more than one way: it damages the container and discredits the truth. (On the last point see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20truth%20discredit&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - droithomme 7y ago
    Fuck off dang you filthy piece of shit, ban my ass. I post valid scientific links proving my claims and you just suck the asses of your capitalist masters like Graham who are wringing their hands at the stock losses. YOU Dan, are responsible for the shitfest that is coming. You are a terrible lackey who is harming the world and your work is finally paying off for you. Enjoy your apocalypse. This motherfucker created a brand new account to post scientific misinformation and YOU Dan are supporting that. What the FUCK is wrong with you Dan? How insane and hateful and malevolent towards humanity can you be? BAN SCIENCE DAN. BAN IT. HARM PEOPLE, DESTROY MANKIND. THIS IS YOUR WAY.
    - creddit 7y ago
      You deserve to be banned for that first line. It's not about you posting studies.
      - rolph 7y ago
        actually taken to an extreme he could deserve criminal charges.
        dang 7y ago
        Let's not go anywhere near that far.
        rolph 7y ago
        i get ya but it looks like an insinuated threat even if it was only postureing.
    - dntrkv 7y ago
      You should seek help.
1996 7y ago
> Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good Evidence required. If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something. I read a comment the other day on how many efforts are impeded by the "quest for perfection" I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall. Don't just think about yourself. We are young and at no real risk of dying (0.1%, whatever). But we may cause the death of other people by simply contaminating more people. Small actions are better than doing nothing when facing exponential growth
- gruez 7y ago
  >I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall. There's a psychological component to this. If a mask reduces the chance of infection (from daily contact) from 60% (random number) to 54%, I'm not going to bother, even though in aggregate it might make a huge difference. That's just me though. Also, I suspect half-measures like this are only effective in the early stages of the outbreak. For instance, if the viral load required for infection is 10 units (completely arbitrary), and your daily exposure is between 5 and 15, using a home-made mask that filters out 50% of viruses makes sense. However, if your daily exposure is 100 (presumably because everyone around you is infected), that 50% reduction isn't going to help you.
  - stubish 7y ago
    Your math assumes you are the only person using masks and have daily exposure. It breaks down when people are in isolation, which many of us now are. You are not out daily, so a 50% reduction is a 50% reduction, and with luck you never accumulate enough to get sick. If everyone wore masks, then every ones daily exposure would drop dramatically. You get 50% less intake, and infected people are emitting much less too. You have pretty much eliminated air born transmission, and can now focus on hands and eyes.
- 7y ago
scottlocklin 7y ago
People were required by law to wear (mostly homemade; the main kind available) masks during the Spanish Flu. The link below gives an account of someone being shot by a public health officer for refusing to wear one. People took it very seriously back then as a way of preventing the spread, and it's not a bad idea for now. https://blog.genealogybank.com/the-history-of-the-great-1918-flu-pandemic-we-all-wore-masks.html https://blog.genealogybank.com/the-history-of-the-great-1918...
nl 7y ago
Homemade masks can be quite effective: http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468 http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468

bitL 7y ago

Surgical/homemade masks are working only if everybody is wearing them and they just impede transmission from the wearer to other people around. If you are the only person wearing such mask, you might not impede infection by much.

droithomme 7y ago
That's false and you are wrong and are posting dangerous misinformation that is harming society. If I am infected it protects others. If I am not infected it protects me.
- bitL 7y ago
  Surgical masks are protecting patients not doctors. Please educate yourself. "The coronavirus is an upper respiratory virus and a surgical mask does not protect you from that kind of virus,” he said. “In fact, when people buy up these masks and hoard these masks then they might not be available for healthcare providers to use for patient care.” He said surgical masks are more effective on people who are already infected with an illness to keep them from infecting others rather than the other way around. He said other types of masks are not very effective at preventing you from getting sick either." https://www.wibc.com/news/local-indiana/surgeon-general-surgical-masks-wont-protect-you-from-the-coronavirus/ https://www.wibc.com/news/local-indiana/surgeon-general-surg...
  - gwright 7y ago
    > The coronavirus is an upper respiratory virus I thought it was a lower respiratory virus. I have no idea if that changes the efficacy of masks but...
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      Probably a typo/fumble finger. Wading through all the dreck it seems that it causes viral pneumonia which is always bad news. Read just today that an advantage of any mask is it keeps people from transferring the virus from their fingers to their mouth and nose. A paper on the effectiveness of home made masks, like from tee shirt material says they are in no way a replacement for N95 masks but are better than nothing.

aaavl2821 7y ago

That may be true. However, if you are a normal citizen (not a healthcare worker) and you have N95 masks, you should strongly consider donating them to healthcare providers right now There are huge shortages of these masks in most US hospitals, even in areas with limited cases (cant speak for other coutnries but assume the same is true). HCPs are forced to either treat patients without wearing masks, guaranteeing high exposure to virus, or not care for patients If you are sheltering in place (as you should be doing if you are healhty), N95 masks wont help you much. THey will 100% help HCPs

threatofrain 7y ago

I think people should be allowed to wear masks, but I think that a lot of this information, including a very full vision about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 1 year, needs to come from CDC and other major institutions. Everyone on the ground having little ad hoc debates doesn't seem like it will converge onto a nationally organized solution. The fact that this is happening is symptomatic of the lack of leadership IMO, and so instead we're getting a disorganized cascade of businesses, institutions, mayors, and governors making ad hoc calls.

austhrow743 7y ago
CDC and other major institutions are looking out for the many not any one individual. They don't want there to be crazy private demand for masks competing with health care professionals.
- karthikb 7y ago
  Yes, but dampening demand by spreading disinformation is incredibly dangerous. This latest paper: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-researchers-model-likely-impact/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-rese... Shows that the pandemic and associated social distancing measures may need to go on for months. How does the CDC switch messaging from saying that masks are useless to "well you should wear one now since you're going out..."
dumdumdum123 7y ago
HN has users from many countries, not just America. And general advice in my country is to wear mask around. Journals share step by step tutorials on how to make them. In some cities, public transport wont allow you in without one (you can improvise with scarf or something). Some stores and pharmacies wont allow you inside without one either. Politicians in photos and personalities wear masks and I think it is to normalize masks wearing. No one here wore mask one month ago, not it is most people outside. For me it was mind boggling when two days ago HN acted like the smart consensus was "masks do nothing, they are useless and don't wear it". It is not just "little ad hoc debates". It is also clashing between cultures I guess. There are people down threads actively convincing others not to wear masks and implying you are uneducated if you do. Unless that side of discussion stops spreading it, people who got the "wear masks for others and yourself" advice should be allowed to state their case too. I dont really know where "dont wear masks" meme is coming from, but it seems to be against everything I hear in my country. Person you are answering to might not be American either.

fortran77 7y ago

Here's a paper that shows that "homemade masks" made from tea cloths were reasonably effective https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ I'm using a homemade mask made from hepa filter material between two layers of dish towel material when I go out. I tie it around so it completely covers my nose and mouth and extents It will probably help if a person a few feet away coughs at me, as happened in the store today. And if I should cough, I may not infect someone else, if I am carrying. And it may keep me from accidentally touching my face

wuunderbar 7y ago
You got a picture of your homemade mask?

exhilaration 7y ago

And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion. I was talking to a doctor yesterday, from Silver Spring, Maryland, right outside of DC. They ran out of N95 masks some time ago and can't find any more. They're using simple surgical masks now. Complaining won't make those N95 masks appear any faster. What they're doing now is that each week there is one dedicated doctor who deals with Covid cases. This is to prevent the entire department from getting infected.