6 ms·

I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux ver

I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it? I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed. They told me I wouldn't find it here in Europe nor they had the means to send it to me. Should I just accept it? Once again, I could find it in Nicotine++. I can't find many movies I like in original language in Netflix, HBO and Amazon, all services I have legal accounts for. Again, should I just accept I won't watch them knowing that I might find them in other channels? I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every pen drive, computer, hard drive, TV set, etc, I purchase just in case I download something "illegally". It turns out I'm lazy/I choose not to spend the required time and I accept not enjoying albums and movies I otherwise would. Well, let me tell you I applaud Popcorn Time.

severine 7y ago
Fellow Soulseeker here. The compensation copyright tax ended in 2011: Cancellation of the fee On March 24, 2011, the National Court annulled the order that regulates the rates applicable to the various devices and supports recorded with the digital canon. The reason is that, because it is a regulation, it needed procedures related to supporting and economic reports that were not carried out. On July 12, 2011, the Congress of Deputies voted favorably on a non-law proposal that urges the Government to abolish said canon and replace it with another compensation formula for authors and content owners that is more suited to copies and uses actually made. On December 31, 2011 the canon was definitively repealed by the newly constituted new Congress of Deputies, being replaced by a new payment this time by the State whose procedure is about to be developed. Source (in spanish): https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_por_copia_privada_(Espa%C3%B1a)#Anulaci%C3%B3n_del_canon https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_por_copia_privada_(Espa%... I join the clapping, sorry for the nitpick!
- pachico 7y ago
  Nothing to feel sorry about! I don't know how I could have missed that but I'm so lucky it ended! Having said this, I still find myself entitled to search for copies of cultural material I like :) Still, too lazy/don't have the time to do it.
  - dylan604 7y ago
    > I still find myself entitled I think that sums it up pretty well. Thanks for at least being honest about it.
    - 1_player 7y ago
      Is it being entitled wanting to be entertained by a piece of art or media? That is its very purpose.
      - dylan604 7y ago
        Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled. The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be. If they are an artist creating solely for the purpose of making art for be people to enjoy, then your premise is acceptable. If the artist is trying to earn money for their work, then that is their choice. If the artist wants to release their work for the world to enjoy, there are legit ways of doing that and protecting it so that other cannot prevent that free enjoyment. I know I'm tilting at windmills with this topic on this particular website, but creating art isn't free and nobody has the right to be entertained by it just by being (either the work or the viewer) be default.
        coribuci 7y ago
        > Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled. U.S. of A would like to have a word with you. > The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be. The purpose of art and media is to generate revenue. People who create just for art are an insignificant minority. The main issue is that when this art does not generate revenue it is thrown away. Then it is no more art. It becomes (like) garbage.
jjulius 7y ago
>I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it? Not sure if you've heard of it or not, but Discogs might be a great place for you to source and purchase a used copy of those albums.
- kkarakk 7y ago
  I tried using this, 1st of all the music was in CDs by a third party seller - which is not a deal breaker but may be to some others. However,seller declined to ship me discs(to india) even though i was willing to pay shipping. He said customs tends to seize items like music cds
  - jjulius 7y ago
    Ah bummer! :(
- pachico 7y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation, sir! I will check it out!
dylan604 7y ago
>I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed I applaud the effort at legitimately trying to get a copy. However, sounds like an opportunity still might exist. Small record labels are always hard pressed for cash. Maybe there's a business deal to be made. I'm sure they would be open to licensing the music to you. You could then release the album yourself, or maybe a compilation album with tracks from other artists in the same style of music. Now you have the opportunity to bring that music to a wider audience based on your interest while maybe making a little money on it as well. This is HN after all. Maybe there's some new website you can make that allows cash strapped record labels to distribute the music legitimately using some new programming language of the day. You could then write up a Show HN and let us all know. We might even be interested.
- gmueckl 7y ago
  What deals could a small label make with an unknown trader with no reputation that are better than uploading the backlog to Spotify with little effort and hoping for a bit of income? This is assuming that the label has the right to upload the works.
  - dylan604 7y ago
    Things are possible. One just needs the courage to ask and possibly be told no, and even more courage to proceed if they say yes. I have personal experience of starting a niche record store with a friend. We were both tired of the music we wanted not being available and decided we'd do it ourselves. Neither of us had any idea about the music industry. We both put in $500 each. Every dime of that was used to buy the initial inventory. We had no money to have a website built (circa 1999). So I learned how to use MySQL and PHP and built one. During the years we ran the business, there were many conversations with artists and record labels. We sold compilation albums where other people licensed individual tracks from labels and arranged them together onto a CD. We even had several discussions about starting our label, but stopped short of that.
- 1_player 7y ago
  It's called Spotify, Apple Music, Google Music (does it still exist?) My brother made a song with 10 yearly listens and I can find it on there. Also Bandcamp is a thing. Very few dinosaurs or really, super niche artists are on neither platform.
sbarre 7y ago
I mean, one of the answers to your question is in fact: "accept that you do not get to consume that media". I'm not advocating for or against what you are choosing to do, but the position of "it's my only choice" is not really accurate. You have no inherent right to that media. Popcorn Time and other P2P file sharing tools are convenient, but let's not be hypocrites about it, they enable illegal behaviour and allow you to go against the wishes of content creators, denying them both revenue from and control of their creations.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  You in fact have no inherent right to control other people's computers. It's hard to justify why you think that creators have a right to the contents of your hard drive and wallet. I don't remember being party to the social or legal contract that created such rights nor realistically do I have a voice in changing it. If society says that as a poor person in addition to having less of everything else I ought to enjoy less movies, music, books, games then perhaps society can go to hell.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Without judgment I find it amusing that these arguments rapidly converge to ones used by the participants on subreddits for shoplifting and stealing. I'm not saying the acts are equivalent, just that the positions are. It also feels like statistically I should have read at least one comment where someone is convinced by argument that their copyright infringement is wrong but over twenty years on the Internet, I actually haven't. Very interesting. It's also pretty easy for me to not judge since I've done things of dubious ethicality myself: I've never paid for a full copy of a textbook. Either I've bought the Asian copy or I've been part of a pool-and-photocopy group. Even now I use scihub preferentially. Interestingly, the scihub usage is more acceptable online than the pool-and-photocopy but in real life no one has given me any grief for either. To be honest, I don't feel very guilty either. And I'd do it again. If I attempt to see it as something shameful, convincing arguments defending myself pop out. I suspect it's something in the shape of the elephant and the mahout - the justification comes because I've already decided what I'll do. What I'll do is not rationally justified - that's coming after. I'd speculate (idly) that this is the same mechanism in other pirates.
crimsonalucard 7y ago
I'm going to be honest with all of you. You all are doing something that is ethically and morally wrong and statements like this are only way too human attempts to justify the actions of things you know are clearly wrong. You can't find legal sources of swing manouche just like you can't find legal sources of the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da vinci. What are you going to do? make a counterfeit copy of the Mona Lisa then buy tickets to the art museum to absolve you of all crimes? That being said I use popcorn time and stremio and torrents regularly. The difference is, I don't justify my crimes. I'm aware of what I'm doing, I don't need to live in a universe that is a self created moral illusion. I likely will do something unethical if I could hide it and it made economic sense. I am human and, morally, I am imperfect, but unlike most of you, morally, I am aware of my imperfections and I don't try to construct logical scaffolding to lie to myself and others. I can pirate because most people pay for the things I pirate, such a model is only sustainable if most people don't do what I do. Things like popcorn time threaten to change the balance. If you want to save the world or do better for the world, do not assume that the world is as described by our parent poster pachico. It's not intelligent to assume that people are going to use popcorn time then purchase Netflix to offset some of that guilt (still a crime btw). Assume the world is made out of people who are as pachico really is.. people who are morally grey but make up lies and illusions to comfort themselves into thinking they are justified in their crimes. I stopped pirating games 10 years ago when my salary crossed a threshold where it wasn't worth my time anymore to pirate a game vs. the convenience to buy it from steam. The way to combat piracy is to create systems that appeal to the previous aforementioned logic. Spotify was a step in the right direction but it eliminated much of the huge profits made by the music industry. Perhaps those profits were ludicrously too large anyway. Either way, the way forward isn't trying to justify your crimes. It's admitting that hey, we are victims of the tragedy of the commons, we use popcorn time because it's free and easy to use... to combat this situation you either need to take steps to destroy this product or come up with something way better.
- pachico 7y ago
  My specific case was live albums of a band named Waso, which were never printed in CD. The only digital copies were fans that owned original vinil records from the '70s and digitalised them. What do you do in this case? I remember downloading a copy of them and not feeling any kind of remorse about it. Not sure it helps but I was myself a musician and my brother plays too as is his only source of income. I know a bit of the industry.
degski 7y ago
> I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every ... I don't know specifically about Spain, but this 'copyright tax' [that was introduced in most, if not all European countries, probably a directive] was for you to legally be able to create copies on your devices of legally acquired contents. The interpretation you have been giving it, is mentally satisfying, but not legally tenable There seems to be contents on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manouche https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manouche . I leave it for you as home-work to ddgo the solution from there.
- koonsolo 7y ago
  It still is a ripoff. Nobody says I'm going to use that storage to take copies. But yeah "I took a backup but lost the original, good thing I took the backup!" ;).
  - degski 7y ago
    Yes, it's a rip-off, I'm trying to state the facts, that does not mean I agree with it nor that I adhere to it.
bschne 7y ago
OT, but as a fan of Django who doesn't know any other artists of the genre - do you have some recommendations? :D
- pachico 7y ago
  Really?! Start by this, listen to this radio (there are many more) and once you like an artist, find him in Spotify and look for similar artists. http://www.jazzradio.fr/radio/webradio/10/jazz-manouche http://www.jazzradio.fr/radio/webradio/10/jazz-manouche

severine 7y ago

Fellow Soulseeker here. The compensation copyright tax ended in 2011: Cancellation of the fee On March 24, 2011, the National Court annulled the order that regulates the rates applicable to the various devices and supports recorded with the digital canon. The reason is that, because it is a regulation, it needed procedures related to supporting and economic reports that were not carried out. On July 12, 2011, the Congress of Deputies voted favorably on a non-law proposal that urges the Government to abolish said canon and replace it with another compensation formula for authors and content owners that is more suited to copies and uses actually made. On December 31, 2011 the canon was definitively repealed by the newly constituted new Congress of Deputies, being replaced by a new payment this time by the State whose procedure is about to be developed. Source (in spanish): https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_por_copia_privada_(Espa%C3%B1a)#Anulaci%C3%B3n_del_canon https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_por_copia_privada_(Espa%... I join the clapping, sorry for the nitpick!

pachico 7y ago
Nothing to feel sorry about! I don't know how I could have missed that but I'm so lucky it ended! Having said this, I still find myself entitled to search for copies of cultural material I like :) Still, too lazy/don't have the time to do it.
- dylan604 7y ago
  > I still find myself entitled I think that sums it up pretty well. Thanks for at least being honest about it.
  - 1_player 7y ago
    Is it being entitled wanting to be entertained by a piece of art or media? That is its very purpose.
    - dylan604 7y ago
      Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled. The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be. If they are an artist creating solely for the purpose of making art for be people to enjoy, then your premise is acceptable. If the artist is trying to earn money for their work, then that is their choice. If the artist wants to release their work for the world to enjoy, there are legit ways of doing that and protecting it so that other cannot prevent that free enjoyment. I know I'm tilting at windmills with this topic on this particular website, but creating art isn't free and nobody has the right to be entertained by it just by being (either the work or the viewer) be default.
      - coribuci 7y ago
        > Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled. U.S. of A would like to have a word with you. > The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be. The purpose of art and media is to generate revenue. People who create just for art are an insignificant minority. The main issue is that when this art does not generate revenue it is thrown away. Then it is no more art. It becomes (like) garbage.

jjulius 7y ago

>I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it? Not sure if you've heard of it or not, but Discogs might be a great place for you to source and purchase a used copy of those albums.

kkarakk 7y ago
I tried using this, 1st of all the music was in CDs by a third party seller - which is not a deal breaker but may be to some others. However,seller declined to ship me discs(to india) even though i was willing to pay shipping. He said customs tends to seize items like music cds
- jjulius 7y ago
  Ah bummer! :(
pachico 7y ago
Thanks for the recommendation, sir! I will check it out!

dylan604 7y ago

>I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed I applaud the effort at legitimately trying to get a copy. However, sounds like an opportunity still might exist. Small record labels are always hard pressed for cash. Maybe there's a business deal to be made. I'm sure they would be open to licensing the music to you. You could then release the album yourself, or maybe a compilation album with tracks from other artists in the same style of music. Now you have the opportunity to bring that music to a wider audience based on your interest while maybe making a little money on it as well. This is HN after all. Maybe there's some new website you can make that allows cash strapped record labels to distribute the music legitimately using some new programming language of the day. You could then write up a Show HN and let us all know. We might even be interested.

gmueckl 7y ago
What deals could a small label make with an unknown trader with no reputation that are better than uploading the backlog to Spotify with little effort and hoping for a bit of income? This is assuming that the label has the right to upload the works.
- dylan604 7y ago
  Things are possible. One just needs the courage to ask and possibly be told no, and even more courage to proceed if they say yes. I have personal experience of starting a niche record store with a friend. We were both tired of the music we wanted not being available and decided we'd do it ourselves. Neither of us had any idea about the music industry. We both put in $500 each. Every dime of that was used to buy the initial inventory. We had no money to have a website built (circa 1999). So I learned how to use MySQL and PHP and built one. During the years we ran the business, there were many conversations with artists and record labels. We sold compilation albums where other people licensed individual tracks from labels and arranged them together onto a CD. We even had several discussions about starting our label, but stopped short of that.
1_player 7y ago
It's called Spotify, Apple Music, Google Music (does it still exist?) My brother made a song with 10 yearly listens and I can find it on there. Also Bandcamp is a thing. Very few dinosaurs or really, super niche artists are on neither platform.

sbarre 7y ago

I mean, one of the answers to your question is in fact: "accept that you do not get to consume that media". I'm not advocating for or against what you are choosing to do, but the position of "it's my only choice" is not really accurate. You have no inherent right to that media. Popcorn Time and other P2P file sharing tools are convenient, but let's not be hypocrites about it, they enable illegal behaviour and allow you to go against the wishes of content creators, denying them both revenue from and control of their creations.

michaelmrose 7y ago
You in fact have no inherent right to control other people's computers. It's hard to justify why you think that creators have a right to the contents of your hard drive and wallet. I don't remember being party to the social or legal contract that created such rights nor realistically do I have a voice in changing it. If society says that as a poor person in addition to having less of everything else I ought to enjoy less movies, music, books, games then perhaps society can go to hell.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Without judgment I find it amusing that these arguments rapidly converge to ones used by the participants on subreddits for shoplifting and stealing. I'm not saying the acts are equivalent, just that the positions are. It also feels like statistically I should have read at least one comment where someone is convinced by argument that their copyright infringement is wrong but over twenty years on the Internet, I actually haven't. Very interesting. It's also pretty easy for me to not judge since I've done things of dubious ethicality myself: I've never paid for a full copy of a textbook. Either I've bought the Asian copy or I've been part of a pool-and-photocopy group. Even now I use scihub preferentially. Interestingly, the scihub usage is more acceptable online than the pool-and-photocopy but in real life no one has given me any grief for either. To be honest, I don't feel very guilty either. And I'd do it again. If I attempt to see it as something shameful, convincing arguments defending myself pop out. I suspect it's something in the shape of the elephant and the mahout - the justification comes because I've already decided what I'll do. What I'll do is not rationally justified - that's coming after. I'd speculate (idly) that this is the same mechanism in other pirates.

crimsonalucard 7y ago

I'm going to be honest with all of you. You all are doing something that is ethically and morally wrong and statements like this are only way too human attempts to justify the actions of things you know are clearly wrong. You can't find legal sources of swing manouche just like you can't find legal sources of the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da vinci. What are you going to do? make a counterfeit copy of the Mona Lisa then buy tickets to the art museum to absolve you of all crimes? That being said I use popcorn time and stremio and torrents regularly. The difference is, I don't justify my crimes. I'm aware of what I'm doing, I don't need to live in a universe that is a self created moral illusion. I likely will do something unethical if I could hide it and it made economic sense. I am human and, morally, I am imperfect, but unlike most of you, morally, I am aware of my imperfections and I don't try to construct logical scaffolding to lie to myself and others. I can pirate because most people pay for the things I pirate, such a model is only sustainable if most people don't do what I do. Things like popcorn time threaten to change the balance. If you want to save the world or do better for the world, do not assume that the world is as described by our parent poster pachico. It's not intelligent to assume that people are going to use popcorn time then purchase Netflix to offset some of that guilt (still a crime btw). Assume the world is made out of people who are as pachico really is.. people who are morally grey but make up lies and illusions to comfort themselves into thinking they are justified in their crimes. I stopped pirating games 10 years ago when my salary crossed a threshold where it wasn't worth my time anymore to pirate a game vs. the convenience to buy it from steam. The way to combat piracy is to create systems that appeal to the previous aforementioned logic. Spotify was a step in the right direction but it eliminated much of the huge profits made by the music industry. Perhaps those profits were ludicrously too large anyway. Either way, the way forward isn't trying to justify your crimes. It's admitting that hey, we are victims of the tragedy of the commons, we use popcorn time because it's free and easy to use... to combat this situation you either need to take steps to destroy this product or come up with something way better.

pachico 7y ago
My specific case was live albums of a band named Waso, which were never printed in CD. The only digital copies were fans that owned original vinil records from the '70s and digitalised them. What do you do in this case? I remember downloading a copy of them and not feeling any kind of remorse about it. Not sure it helps but I was myself a musician and my brother plays too as is his only source of income. I know a bit of the industry.

degski 7y ago

> I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every ... I don't know specifically about Spain, but this 'copyright tax' [that was introduced in most, if not all European countries, probably a directive] was for you to legally be able to create copies on your devices of legally acquired contents. The interpretation you have been giving it, is mentally satisfying, but not legally tenable There seems to be contents on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manouche https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manouche . I leave it for you as home-work to ddgo the solution from there.

koonsolo 7y ago
It still is a ripoff. Nobody says I'm going to use that storage to take copies. But yeah "I took a backup but lost the original, good thing I took the backup!" ;).
- degski 7y ago
  Yes, it's a rip-off, I'm trying to state the facts, that does not mean I agree with it nor that I adhere to it.

bschne 7y ago

OT, but as a fan of Django who doesn't know any other artists of the genre - do you have some recommendations? :D

pachico 7y ago
Really?! Start by this, listen to this radio (there are many more) and once you like an artist, find him in Spotify and look for similar artists. http://www.jazzradio.fr/radio/webradio/10/jazz-manouche http://www.jazzradio.fr/radio/webradio/10/jazz-manouche