4 ms·

It's in the statement. Elevate official and authoritative information over fake news and lies.

by avip 7y ago

paganel 7y ago
"Official and authoritative information" in Germany is that only 17 people have died out of the 7500+ officially infected with the virus, with "official information" like that it's not hard for "unofficial information" to be closer to the truth on the ground.
- close04 7y ago
  Are you using intuition to say that the numbers can't be right or some knowledge of real numbers? So how many did die of Coronavirus in reality? If someone is already suffering from life threatening complications would this still count as a Covid death?
  - paganel 7y ago
    > If someone is already suffering from life threatening complications would this still count as a Covid death? The Western official media was strongly denouncing the Chinese authorities when they were doing similar things a month or so ago in Hubei. Following that same logic I guess cancer is not the number one killer in the world, it's either the respiratory failure caused by that cancer or the related infections. But this is just Western hubris in play, as in "our numbers can never be wrong, reality be damned", and I say that as a guy from the Western "side".
    - close04 7y ago
      > Following that same logic I guess cancer is not the number one killer in the world, it's either the respiratory failure caused by that cancer or the related infections But you are not following the same logic. Mine was an honest question while you seem to pick a particular (mis)interpretation. Complications of a particular illness are part of that illness. I'm talking about adding Coronavirus complications to already life threatening ones from other diseases. HIV/AIDS are considered the killers even if it's unrelated infections that cause the actual death. Case in point, I was in the hospital when 2 patients with less that 1% chance of surviving (cancer, no immune system) contracted an antibiotic resistant bacteria. They both subsequently died and this was attributed to the cancer not the bacteria because it was pretty much a forgone conclusion that they would have died within days regardless. So if someone with no immune system dies of Covid-19 can you reasonably say Coronavirus killed them? Or would any minor complication have done the same? If you have a heart attack while driving but it's the crash that actually kills you the cause of death is considered the heart attack.
      - paganel 7y ago
        > So if someone with no immune system dies of Covid-19 can you reasonably say Coronavirus killed them? Yes, especially if those persons were walking freely and minding about their own lives just a week or two before, as is the case with the majority of the people that have died in Italy because of covid. I highly suspect that only a small fraction of those that died were days or weeks away from dying of other causes. To put things into perspective, from somewhere that I just read now reguarding the situation in Bergamo: > In Bergamo, normally, about 3/4 people die every day. > Only yesterday 50 died. 50 deaths in a single day, in a city where 3 usually die. Bergamo is one of the best developed cities in Northern Italy and as such one of the best developed in Western Europe, I fail to see how the Germans are very different.
        close04 7y ago
        > Yes, especially if those persons were walking freely and minding about their own lives just a week or two before, Then as I said, we're not talking about the same people. I'm strictly wondering how do the patients already on the death bed count. Not about more or less healthy people who are struck down by Covid-19. There are plenty of terminally ill patients in hospitals and they have a good chance of being exposed to this (there are hospitals in Italy where 70% of the personnel tested came out positive).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
What GP said is that the official statements were the lies.
PeterisP 7y ago
In multiple cases the official information is (or was) definite lies, and you need to look unofficial rumors to estimate the truth. Multiple regimes have intentionally manipulated facts during this crisis for political reasons. What is the cost of lies?

It's in the statement. Elevate official and authoritative information over fake news and lies.

by avip 7y ago

It's in the statement. Elevate official and authoritative information over fake news and lies.

"Official and authoritative information" in Germany is that only 17 people have died out of the 7500+ officially infected with the virus, with "official information" like that it's not hard for "unofficial information" to be closer to the truth on the ground.

close04 7y ago
Are you using intuition to say that the numbers can't be right or some knowledge of real numbers? So how many did die of Coronavirus in reality? If someone is already suffering from life threatening complications would this still count as a Covid death?
- paganel 7y ago
  > If someone is already suffering from life threatening complications would this still count as a Covid death? The Western official media was strongly denouncing the Chinese authorities when they were doing similar things a month or so ago in Hubei. Following that same logic I guess cancer is not the number one killer in the world, it's either the respiratory failure caused by that cancer or the related infections. But this is just Western hubris in play, as in "our numbers can never be wrong, reality be damned", and I say that as a guy from the Western "side".
  - close04 7y ago
    > Following that same logic I guess cancer is not the number one killer in the world, it's either the respiratory failure caused by that cancer or the related infections But you are not following the same logic. Mine was an honest question while you seem to pick a particular (mis)interpretation. Complications of a particular illness are part of that illness. I'm talking about adding Coronavirus complications to already life threatening ones from other diseases. HIV/AIDS are considered the killers even if it's unrelated infections that cause the actual death. Case in point, I was in the hospital when 2 patients with less that 1% chance of surviving (cancer, no immune system) contracted an antibiotic resistant bacteria. They both subsequently died and this was attributed to the cancer not the bacteria because it was pretty much a forgone conclusion that they would have died within days regardless. So if someone with no immune system dies of Covid-19 can you reasonably say Coronavirus killed them? Or would any minor complication have done the same? If you have a heart attack while driving but it's the crash that actually kills you the cause of death is considered the heart attack.
    - paganel 7y ago
      > So if someone with no immune system dies of Covid-19 can you reasonably say Coronavirus killed them? Yes, especially if those persons were walking freely and minding about their own lives just a week or two before, as is the case with the majority of the people that have died in Italy because of covid. I highly suspect that only a small fraction of those that died were days or weeks away from dying of other causes. To put things into perspective, from somewhere that I just read now reguarding the situation in Bergamo: > In Bergamo, normally, about 3/4 people die every day. > Only yesterday 50 died. 50 deaths in a single day, in a city where 3 usually die. Bergamo is one of the best developed cities in Northern Italy and as such one of the best developed in Western Europe, I fail to see how the Germans are very different.
      - close04 7y ago
        > Yes, especially if those persons were walking freely and minding about their own lives just a week or two before, Then as I said, we're not talking about the same people. I'm strictly wondering how do the patients already on the death bed count. Not about more or less healthy people who are struck down by Covid-19. There are plenty of terminally ill patients in hospitals and they have a good chance of being exposed to this (there are hospitals in Italy where 70% of the personnel tested came out positive).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jfkebwjsbx 7y ago

What GP said is that the official statements were the lies.

PeterisP 7y ago

In multiple cases the official information is (or was) definite lies, and you need to look unofficial rumors to estimate the truth. Multiple regimes have intentionally manipulated facts during this crisis for political reasons. What is the cost of lies?