4 ms·

> Self quarantine without a notice and hence without pay? If you have symptoms of _any_ illness you should always get a sick leave and stay at home. It does no

by trymas 7y ago

> Self quarantine without a notice and hence without pay? If you have symptoms of _any_ illness you should always get a sick leave and stay at home. It does not matter if it's covid, seasonal flu or just a common cold - sick leave and stay at home.

uluyol 7y ago
Unfortunately this is not an option for many people. I don't disagree with the sentiment - avoiding the spread of disease is good - but often the reward systems in place don't optimize for the best global outcomes.
- ta999999171 7y ago
  So why do we keep accepting these conditions?
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > So why do we keep accepting these conditions? Probably because the negative repercussions of that behavior are typically not very severe.
    - maigret 7y ago
      They actually cost a lot of money to businesses, but no one cares to track to show the ugly truth. Europe has a lot of data showing that going to work sick ends up costing much more than staying home, thus this is a irresponsible attitude - given you keep getting your pay of course.
- rixed 7y ago
  Luckily we are born with "judgment" for all these cases were instincts or rewards do not point in the right direction. According to some, that's literally the reason d'etre of consciousness. I wish it worked better and I were not confined home right now.
  - romski 7y ago
    You sound like someone that works at a company with “unlimited pto” am I right?
  - vladvasiliu 7y ago
    Right. But how often does this actually happen in the real world ? And most importantly, what are we, as a society, ready to bet on the fact that not enough will make the "wrong" judgement ?
- trymas 7y ago
  Where are you from? Where I live - I think I am even motivated to get sick leave. If I feel ill, I can get sick leave, with no time limits I am aware of [0], and as a reward I will get 80% [1] of my salary back for essentially doing nothing. IMHO it's a win/win. I will get well and be productive as soon as possible [2]. If it's a viral illness - my employer would be happy that I will not make dozens of other people ill. [0] I have not read the law, but I have never heard of anyone reaching that limit. You can stay ill for months and still be compensated. Of course after some long time, you'll probably be moved from sick leave to some kind of disability program, which sucks, but we are not talking about disabilities. [1] There's a cap for sick leave compensation, but unless you are earning _a lot_ it should be enough. [2] Personal anecdata, but personally common cold takes couple of days of rest to go away, if I try to be tough and won't rest - it may take couple of weeks before I feel well again. Better couple of days of 0 productivity, than couple of weeks of work simulation.
  - jeremysalwen 7y ago
    Wait till you hear about the health care system in the United States...
blahedo 7y ago
I mean, sure, if you have sick leave. The above comment is perhaps aspirational, but otherwise it is woefully ignorant of the sad, sad state of US healthcare for most of its residents.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  It's a problem everywhere. Sick leave is something you take when you have high fever or need surgery, not when you start coughing. Reasons include: there's only so much sick leave you can take, employers expect sick leave to be extremely rare and will "phase you out" if it isn't, getting a sick leave involves a visit to a doctor - which, like any visit to a healthcare facility processing sick people - comes with a risk of catching something even worse than what you came with. Every place on the planet needs to rethink how we handle infectious diseases. This requires both a cultural and legal shift, so that one can just not come to work when showing mild symptoms and not face any negative consequences. The market will not make this happen on its own. But this is a golden opportunity for the cultural shift - every society on this planet is going to be deeply scarred by SARS-CoV-2.
  - ElFitz 7y ago
    > getting a sick leave involves a visit to a doctor - which, like any visit to a healthcare facility processing sick people Remote doctor visits are starting to become a thing, now! Still don't know how they'll check our temperature, or issue us the sick leave paperwork. But hey! It's a start!
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      It's a huge opportunity and I hope it'll become popular everywhere. Like e.g. someone in my family has been noticing a rash on their hands recently and was getting worried. There's no way in hell I'll let them go visit a doctor now, and this kind of consultation is something perfectly suited for doing it over the Internet.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > Sick leave is something you take when you have high fever or need surgery No, you take it when you have a problem big enough that it impacts your ability to work OR when you have a contagious disease. It's a lose/lose situation for a company if a single person gets half the company sick. > there's only so much sick leave you can take, employers expect sick leave to be extremely rare and will "phase you out" In the US sure, in Europe you can't fire someone for health reasons. In France you'll even get 66% of your salary for 3 years if you can't work at all for health related reasons.
watwut 7y ago
I agree with you and practice that. But even in tech where work from home is an option and companies are rich enough to let people stay in bad anyway, in many companies it is treated as heroic to push through. Meaning, staying at home makes you seen as less comited and less passionate. Thus, people avoid it.
- etrk 7y ago
  If you're working for a company where it's seen as "heroic" or "passionate" to come to work sick, you're in a toxic environment. I've had a couple co-workers who perhaps see themselves as heroic for coming to work sick, but everyone else resents them and wishes they would just stay home.
- jopsen 7y ago
  > in many companies it is treated as heroic to push through. I disagree, I see myself as weak for staying home an extra day or two, but I don't see others as weak for doing the same. Today, I think the pressure to push through is mostly self-imposed. That's makes it no less real though. Personally, I don't like sitting in an office with someone who is coughing. During the current virus out break, I doubt anyone will appreciate you pushing though :)
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Those environments are created by employees themselves. If you don't tell someone with a cold to go home, you are part of the problem.
  - watwut 7y ago
    By employees and by leadership. It absolutely does matter more what management does and how management acts then what random employees do.

by trymas 7y ago

uluyol 7y ago

Unfortunately this is not an option for many people. I don't disagree with the sentiment - avoiding the spread of disease is good - but often the reward systems in place don't optimize for the best global outcomes.

ta999999171 7y ago
So why do we keep accepting these conditions?
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > So why do we keep accepting these conditions? Probably because the negative repercussions of that behavior are typically not very severe.
  - maigret 7y ago
    They actually cost a lot of money to businesses, but no one cares to track to show the ugly truth. Europe has a lot of data showing that going to work sick ends up costing much more than staying home, thus this is a irresponsible attitude - given you keep getting your pay of course.
rixed 7y ago
Luckily we are born with "judgment" for all these cases were instincts or rewards do not point in the right direction. According to some, that's literally the reason d'etre of consciousness. I wish it worked better and I were not confined home right now.
- romski 7y ago
  You sound like someone that works at a company with “unlimited pto” am I right?
- vladvasiliu 7y ago
  Right. But how often does this actually happen in the real world ? And most importantly, what are we, as a society, ready to bet on the fact that not enough will make the "wrong" judgement ?
trymas 7y ago
Where are you from? Where I live - I think I am even motivated to get sick leave. If I feel ill, I can get sick leave, with no time limits I am aware of [0], and as a reward I will get 80% [1] of my salary back for essentially doing nothing. IMHO it's a win/win. I will get well and be productive as soon as possible [2]. If it's a viral illness - my employer would be happy that I will not make dozens of other people ill. [0] I have not read the law, but I have never heard of anyone reaching that limit. You can stay ill for months and still be compensated. Of course after some long time, you'll probably be moved from sick leave to some kind of disability program, which sucks, but we are not talking about disabilities. [1] There's a cap for sick leave compensation, but unless you are earning _a lot_ it should be enough. [2] Personal anecdata, but personally common cold takes couple of days of rest to go away, if I try to be tough and won't rest - it may take couple of weeks before I feel well again. Better couple of days of 0 productivity, than couple of weeks of work simulation.
- jeremysalwen 7y ago
  Wait till you hear about the health care system in the United States...

blahedo 7y ago

I mean, sure, if you have sick leave. The above comment is perhaps aspirational, but otherwise it is woefully ignorant of the sad, sad state of US healthcare for most of its residents.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
It's a problem everywhere. Sick leave is something you take when you have high fever or need surgery, not when you start coughing. Reasons include: there's only so much sick leave you can take, employers expect sick leave to be extremely rare and will "phase you out" if it isn't, getting a sick leave involves a visit to a doctor - which, like any visit to a healthcare facility processing sick people - comes with a risk of catching something even worse than what you came with. Every place on the planet needs to rethink how we handle infectious diseases. This requires both a cultural and legal shift, so that one can just not come to work when showing mild symptoms and not face any negative consequences. The market will not make this happen on its own. But this is a golden opportunity for the cultural shift - every society on this planet is going to be deeply scarred by SARS-CoV-2.
- ElFitz 7y ago
  > getting a sick leave involves a visit to a doctor - which, like any visit to a healthcare facility processing sick people Remote doctor visits are starting to become a thing, now! Still don't know how they'll check our temperature, or issue us the sick leave paperwork. But hey! It's a start!
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    It's a huge opportunity and I hope it'll become popular everywhere. Like e.g. someone in my family has been noticing a rash on their hands recently and was getting worried. There's no way in hell I'll let them go visit a doctor now, and this kind of consultation is something perfectly suited for doing it over the Internet.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > Sick leave is something you take when you have high fever or need surgery No, you take it when you have a problem big enough that it impacts your ability to work OR when you have a contagious disease. It's a lose/lose situation for a company if a single person gets half the company sick. > there's only so much sick leave you can take, employers expect sick leave to be extremely rare and will "phase you out" In the US sure, in Europe you can't fire someone for health reasons. In France you'll even get 66% of your salary for 3 years if you can't work at all for health related reasons.

watwut 7y ago

I agree with you and practice that. But even in tech where work from home is an option and companies are rich enough to let people stay in bad anyway, in many companies it is treated as heroic to push through. Meaning, staying at home makes you seen as less comited and less passionate. Thus, people avoid it.

etrk 7y ago
If you're working for a company where it's seen as "heroic" or "passionate" to come to work sick, you're in a toxic environment. I've had a couple co-workers who perhaps see themselves as heroic for coming to work sick, but everyone else resents them and wishes they would just stay home.
jopsen 7y ago
> in many companies it is treated as heroic to push through. I disagree, I see myself as weak for staying home an extra day or two, but I don't see others as weak for doing the same. Today, I think the pressure to push through is mostly self-imposed. That's makes it no less real though. Personally, I don't like sitting in an office with someone who is coughing. During the current virus out break, I doubt anyone will appreciate you pushing though :)
alkonaut 7y ago
Those environments are created by employees themselves. If you don't tell someone with a cold to go home, you are part of the problem.
- watwut 7y ago
  By employees and by leadership. It absolutely does matter more what management does and how management acts then what random employees do.