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They’ve also had widespread infection for longer. China got a 3 month head start. It’s pointless to say one has an good outcome when it’s only now beginning to

by fiblye 7y ago

They’ve also had widespread infection for longer. China got a 3 month head start. It’s pointless to say one has an good outcome when it’s only now beginning to grow. And some countries like Japan have public health care. Despite being one of the first countries with widespread infection, they’re still far below America.

big_chungus 7y ago
China also has a wider set of options to violate the liberties of her citizens. That does come in handy some times, but we've decided we don't do that here. Japan is very, very different culturally, so it's quite hard to compare; she's also a small archipelago whereas America is a large landmass. It will also be interesting to see the court cases that come from what American governments have done so far; there's a serious case to be made for violations of our right to freely assemble. Even the time, place, and manner standard (which is still contested but is current precedent) may not cover such drastic curtailment of all public gatherings. Sadly, these things usually happen and get fought out in court later (see Japanese internment camps) when in some sort of crisis state, so I doubt constitutionality has any bearing on the pencil-pushers latest and greatest idea. Friendly reminder that, while I don't see any malicious intent in the current actions, these directives specifically sound disturbingly close to those issued by many an authoritarian government: > You cannot engage in group activities in person with others. > You cannot have dinner parties. You cannot invite friends over to your home to hang out. The precedent set today could be abused in the future, particularly precedent that looks like this.
- Cyberdog 7y ago
  Thank you for making this argument more rationally than I am apparently capable of making it.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  > Friendly reminder that, while I don't see any malicious intent in the current actions, these directives specifically sound disturbingly close to those issued by many an authoritarian government. And yet, China's number of active cases went from 81K to 9K in a few weeks.
  - dcftoapv 7y ago
    Don't trust Chinese statistics. They are manipulated to say whatever the government wants them to say. This is the same country that starting running empty production facilities so economists couldn't predict GDP impacts.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      The WHO agreed with China's assessment, and if you don't believe them, Tim Cook re-opened all Apple stores in China because the situation is effectively under control now -- and shut them everywhere else in the world. No matter how you feel about China, you can believe Tim.
      - big_chungus 7y ago
        It's also possible that the communists pressured Cook to re-open to send that message. It wouldn't be the first time Apple has caved to the CCP. To answer your earlier comment, even if the cases dropped, are you arguing that we implement authoritarianism just because it's more convenient in this case? Classic "trains run on time" argument. Of course it offers some benefits, but the losses are far greater.
        arcticbull 7y ago
        You think Tim Cook bowed to China and closed every Apple store in the entire world except in China? That hardly seems likely. > To answer your earlier comment, even if the cases dropped, are you arguing that we implement authoritarianism just because it's more convenient in this case? Classic "trains run on time" argument. Of course it offers some benefits, but the losses are far greater. Not making an argument one way or the other just stating some facts. People can make up their own minds.
dcftoapv 7y ago
"It’s pointless to say one has an good outcome when it’s only now beginning to grow." It's also pointless to say that we have a bad outcome when it's only now beginning to grow. We don't know how this is going to turn out, but the US is not in a worse position to deal with this than most other countries. Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. responded well because they already had to deal with SARS. They had infrastructure in place to respond to an outbreak exactly like this one. The US didn't have that experience, but we're catching up. Moreover, we still don't know if China has actually weathered this storm. It is very possible that this could tick back up once they start going back to work. If that happens then all of this effort could end up as nothing more than a stall on the inevitable.
s1artibartfast 7y ago
Ignoring China and Japan as outliers. The US, Germany, France, and Spain have nearly identical growth curves so far. It will be interesting to see if the US will end up. I expect the response will be better than most.

by fiblye 7y ago

big_chungus 7y ago

China also has a wider set of options to violate the liberties of her citizens. That does come in handy some times, but we've decided we don't do that here. Japan is very, very different culturally, so it's quite hard to compare; she's also a small archipelago whereas America is a large landmass. It will also be interesting to see the court cases that come from what American governments have done so far; there's a serious case to be made for violations of our right to freely assemble. Even the time, place, and manner standard (which is still contested but is current precedent) may not cover such drastic curtailment of all public gatherings. Sadly, these things usually happen and get fought out in court later (see Japanese internment camps) when in some sort of crisis state, so I doubt constitutionality has any bearing on the pencil-pushers latest and greatest idea. Friendly reminder that, while I don't see any malicious intent in the current actions, these directives specifically sound disturbingly close to those issued by many an authoritarian government: > You cannot engage in group activities in person with others. > You cannot have dinner parties. You cannot invite friends over to your home to hang out. The precedent set today could be abused in the future, particularly precedent that looks like this.

Cyberdog 7y ago
Thank you for making this argument more rationally than I am apparently capable of making it.
arcticbull 7y ago
> Friendly reminder that, while I don't see any malicious intent in the current actions, these directives specifically sound disturbingly close to those issued by many an authoritarian government. And yet, China's number of active cases went from 81K to 9K in a few weeks.
- dcftoapv 7y ago
  Don't trust Chinese statistics. They are manipulated to say whatever the government wants them to say. This is the same country that starting running empty production facilities so economists couldn't predict GDP impacts.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The WHO agreed with China's assessment, and if you don't believe them, Tim Cook re-opened all Apple stores in China because the situation is effectively under control now -- and shut them everywhere else in the world. No matter how you feel about China, you can believe Tim.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      It's also possible that the communists pressured Cook to re-open to send that message. It wouldn't be the first time Apple has caved to the CCP. To answer your earlier comment, even if the cases dropped, are you arguing that we implement authoritarianism just because it's more convenient in this case? Classic "trains run on time" argument. Of course it offers some benefits, but the losses are far greater.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        You think Tim Cook bowed to China and closed every Apple store in the entire world except in China? That hardly seems likely. > To answer your earlier comment, even if the cases dropped, are you arguing that we implement authoritarianism just because it's more convenient in this case? Classic "trains run on time" argument. Of course it offers some benefits, but the losses are far greater. Not making an argument one way or the other just stating some facts. People can make up their own minds.

dcftoapv 7y ago

"It’s pointless to say one has an good outcome when it’s only now beginning to grow." It's also pointless to say that we have a bad outcome when it's only now beginning to grow. We don't know how this is going to turn out, but the US is not in a worse position to deal with this than most other countries. Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. responded well because they already had to deal with SARS. They had infrastructure in place to respond to an outbreak exactly like this one. The US didn't have that experience, but we're catching up. Moreover, we still don't know if China has actually weathered this storm. It is very possible that this could tick back up once they start going back to work. If that happens then all of this effort could end up as nothing more than a stall on the inevitable.

s1artibartfast 7y ago

Ignoring China and Japan as outliers. The US, Germany, France, and Spain have nearly identical growth curves so far. It will be interesting to see if the US will end up. I expect the response will be better than most.