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> Yes, there are people that do exactly that, and probably will for all time. Has it ruined the Australian economy? nope. Has there been rampant inflation? nope

> Yes, there are people that do exactly that, and probably will for all time. Has it ruined the Australian economy? nope. Has there been rampant inflation? nope. It is besides the point really isn't it? Why should the tax payer pay for someone sitting on their behind? Why should I pay for someone else doing nothing? I am close to paying 40% of my income to tax at the moment and I've been saving for a property for years (I earn too much to have any help on buying a flat). What the studies say is absolutely irrelevant because I cannot abide the (lack of) principle itself.

majormajor 7y ago
> Why should I pay for someone else doing nothing? I am close to 40% tax at the moment and I've been saving for a house for years (I earn too much to have any help on buying a flat). What the studies say is absolutely irrelevant because I cannot abide the principle. You're gonna pay one way or another... Some costs will be more monetary, some will be more health/crime-related, etc, but very few of us live in countries where there is a general desire and will to force people to work. What exactly do you suggest as the alternative?
- uk_programmer 7y ago
  > You're gonna pay one way or another. Only because nonsense like this is allowed. > Some costs will be more monetary, some will be more health/crime-related, etc, but very few of us live in countries where there is a general desire and will to force people to work. You should be looking for work. If you haven't tried looking for a job you get your benefits removed. Obviously the Elderly and Disabled should get help but healthy people should be looking for work if they aren't employed. > What exactly do you suggest as the alternative? Get a job.
  - battery_cowboy 7y ago
    What if there aren't enough jobs and they've automated everything they can? What's your answer when a hundred million jobs are gone to robots?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - uk_programmer 7y ago
      They said that computer technology would eliminate boring office jobs back in the 1980s and 1990s (when most unskilled labour was still manual). This didn't happen. In fact 100% the opposite happened.
  - battery_cowboy 7y ago
    Coward, downvoting because you have no response to my valid question.
    - samatman 7y ago
      You must be new here. Two things: the people you're replying to can't downvote you, and complaining about downvotes will earn you downvotes.
grecy 7y ago
> It (inflation) is besides the point really isn't it? Rampant inflation or the idea that nobody would go to work are commonly held up as big reasons not to have a UBI (or something similar) so it's important to address those. > Why should the tax payer pay for someone sitting on their behind? There are a host of reasons, here's a few off my head: - We accept there will always be people we will pay to sit on their behind (disabled, elderly, mentally ill, students going to university, veterans, retired government employees, etc.). It's important to recognize we already pay a huge number of people (about 5 million, or 20% of Australians according to one of my links above) to "sit on their behind" - It gets them off the street and therefore not out committing crimes. - Because you're happy doing what you're doing (going to work, I presume) and those people are happy doing what they're doing (nothing). So everyone is happy right now. If you force them to go to work you'll be unhappy because you'll spend all your time forcing them, and dealing with other massive societal problems like crime, and they'll be unhappy because you're making them go to work when they don't want to. So you would reduce happiness by forcing them to go to work. Also likely they'll do a terrible job at whatever work you force them to do, which is not good for society. If you want to rebut that last point by saying "but I'm not happy (going to work)" then there is an extremely simple answer - Quit. Get the free money and do nothing all the time. Of course I already know you won't do that because it won't make you happy, and you don't want to live on $1k a month (it's good enough, but not great). Plenty of people actually do try it for a while (I did)... and then they come back to paid work again because overall for 95% of people (as proved by evidence) life is better. Everyone is already doing what makes them happy, so leave it alone. Remember, US tax payers are spending literally trillions of dollars on wars and bailing out banks (again)... would you rather the Australian government spend those tax dollars that way, or spend it on improving the lives of Australians who are in Australia?
- uk_programmer 7y ago
  > Rampant inflation or the idea that nobody would go to work are commonly held up as big reasons not to have a UBI (or something similar) so it's important to address those. You completely missed the point. I am against the principle of me (a tax payer) paying for someone else not working unless they can't work (unable to work). The inflation argument is completely irrelevant. > If you want to rebut that last point by saying "but I'm not happy (going to work)" then there is an extremely simple answer - Quit. It is besides the point. The principle is that I earn my way and I stand up on my own two feet. It not about liking work or not liking it. It is entirely besides the point. > Get the free money and do nothing all the time. Of course I already know you won't do that because it won't make you happy, and you don't want to live on $1k a month (it's good enough, but not great). Plenty of people actually do try it for a while (I did)... and then they come back to paid work again because overall for 95% of people (as proved by evidence) life is better. This is why it is irritating arguing with people like yourself. It isn't about the facts. It is about the principle. When I am working I don't want to be paying my tax for someone sitting on their behind. > Remember, US tax payers are spending literally trillions of dollars on wars and bailing out banks (again)... would you rather the Australian government spend those tax dollars that way, or spend it on improving the lives of Australians who are in Australia? Just because banks got bailed out in the past (which was wrong) doesn't mean it is okay to do something else that isn't ethical.

majormajor 7y ago

> Why should I pay for someone else doing nothing? I am close to 40% tax at the moment and I've been saving for a house for years (I earn too much to have any help on buying a flat). What the studies say is absolutely irrelevant because I cannot abide the principle. You're gonna pay one way or another... Some costs will be more monetary, some will be more health/crime-related, etc, but very few of us live in countries where there is a general desire and will to force people to work. What exactly do you suggest as the alternative?

uk_programmer 7y ago
> You're gonna pay one way or another. Only because nonsense like this is allowed. > Some costs will be more monetary, some will be more health/crime-related, etc, but very few of us live in countries where there is a general desire and will to force people to work. You should be looking for work. If you haven't tried looking for a job you get your benefits removed. Obviously the Elderly and Disabled should get help but healthy people should be looking for work if they aren't employed. > What exactly do you suggest as the alternative? Get a job.
- battery_cowboy 7y ago
  What if there aren't enough jobs and they've automated everything they can? What's your answer when a hundred million jobs are gone to robots?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - uk_programmer 7y ago
    They said that computer technology would eliminate boring office jobs back in the 1980s and 1990s (when most unskilled labour was still manual). This didn't happen. In fact 100% the opposite happened.
- battery_cowboy 7y ago
  Coward, downvoting because you have no response to my valid question.
  - samatman 7y ago
    You must be new here. Two things: the people you're replying to can't downvote you, and complaining about downvotes will earn you downvotes.

grecy 7y ago

> It (inflation) is besides the point really isn't it? Rampant inflation or the idea that nobody would go to work are commonly held up as big reasons not to have a UBI (or something similar) so it's important to address those. > Why should the tax payer pay for someone sitting on their behind? There are a host of reasons, here's a few off my head: - We accept there will always be people we will pay to sit on their behind (disabled, elderly, mentally ill, students going to university, veterans, retired government employees, etc.). It's important to recognize we already pay a huge number of people (about 5 million, or 20% of Australians according to one of my links above) to "sit on their behind" - It gets them off the street and therefore not out committing crimes. - Because you're happy doing what you're doing (going to work, I presume) and those people are happy doing what they're doing (nothing). So everyone is happy right now. If you force them to go to work you'll be unhappy because you'll spend all your time forcing them, and dealing with other massive societal problems like crime, and they'll be unhappy because you're making them go to work when they don't want to. So you would reduce happiness by forcing them to go to work. Also likely they'll do a terrible job at whatever work you force them to do, which is not good for society. If you want to rebut that last point by saying "but I'm not happy (going to work)" then there is an extremely simple answer - Quit. Get the free money and do nothing all the time. Of course I already know you won't do that because it won't make you happy, and you don't want to live on $1k a month (it's good enough, but not great). Plenty of people actually do try it for a while (I did)... and then they come back to paid work again because overall for 95% of people (as proved by evidence) life is better. Everyone is already doing what makes them happy, so leave it alone. Remember, US tax payers are spending literally trillions of dollars on wars and bailing out banks (again)... would you rather the Australian government spend those tax dollars that way, or spend it on improving the lives of Australians who are in Australia?

uk_programmer 7y ago
> Rampant inflation or the idea that nobody would go to work are commonly held up as big reasons not to have a UBI (or something similar) so it's important to address those. You completely missed the point. I am against the principle of me (a tax payer) paying for someone else not working unless they can't work (unable to work). The inflation argument is completely irrelevant. > If you want to rebut that last point by saying "but I'm not happy (going to work)" then there is an extremely simple answer - Quit. It is besides the point. The principle is that I earn my way and I stand up on my own two feet. It not about liking work or not liking it. It is entirely besides the point. > Get the free money and do nothing all the time. Of course I already know you won't do that because it won't make you happy, and you don't want to live on $1k a month (it's good enough, but not great). Plenty of people actually do try it for a while (I did)... and then they come back to paid work again because overall for 95% of people (as proved by evidence) life is better. This is why it is irritating arguing with people like yourself. It isn't about the facts. It is about the principle. When I am working I don't want to be paying my tax for someone sitting on their behind. > Remember, US tax payers are spending literally trillions of dollars on wars and bailing out banks (again)... would you rather the Australian government spend those tax dollars that way, or spend it on improving the lives of Australians who are in Australia? Just because banks got bailed out in the past (which was wrong) doesn't mean it is okay to do something else that isn't ethical.