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This is an inflammatory headline for no reason. The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. A true poor healthcare nation would be so

by xwdv 7y ago

This is an inflammatory headline for no reason. The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. A true poor healthcare nation would be somewhere where no amount of money could buy you any effective treatment. We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”.

phoe-krk 7y ago
Healthcare that is not accessible without falling into debt and/or prison is poor healthcare, period. To a sick person, it doesn't matter if they can't get themselves treated because the infrastructure doesn't exist or because the infrastructure exists but is out of their reach; they're dead either way in the long run.
- microtherion 7y ago
  And in the particular case of an epidemic, having a significant part of the population without good access to the healthcare system is likely to create worse outcomes for EVERYONE.
outworlder 7y ago
> The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? That's not good healthcare, is it? > We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”. For some people, it is a choice between shitty healthcare, vs no healthcare.
- refurb 7y ago
  So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? Sure it does, it has either Medicaid (almost zero out of pocket) or heavily subsidized (up to 100%) marketplace plans.
  - walkingolof 7y ago
    So if you are just above “poor” what happens then?
  - robocat 7y ago
    Do Norwegian students have access to Medicaid? If they have travel insurance, would they be covered, or will an exclusion kick in? In many socialised healthcare countries, tourists will get treated for free or cheaply (although you should always have insurance: and you really really want to avoid many facilities in poor countries because they often lack funds to give decent care).
- hogFeast 7y ago
  Medicare. The US public health care system as a % of GDP is probably 75% of the size of Norway's total healthcare spending...and the US has a private health care system subsidising that worth 3x Norway's total spending as % of GDP. There is a lot of confused thinking on this topic.
- aksss 7y ago
  Well to his point the headline doesn’t say “poor healthcare system” it says poor healthcare.
_delirium 7y ago
> A true poor healthcare nation would be somewhere where no amount of money could buy you any effective treatment. That's precisely the worry here! If we don't keep COVID-19 spread low enough to stay within hospital capacity, no amount of money will be able to buy you treatment. Non-critical surgeries are already being postponed everywhere, even surgeries for earlier-stage cancers [1] – no matter how much you're willing to pay. Granted, not the normal case, but I'd consider ability to respond to pandemics part of the quality of a nation's healthcare system. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/coronavirus-covid-surgeries-canceled.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/coronavirus-covid-surg...
- xwdv 7y ago
  Hate to break it to you but even with COVID-19 people will still have to go to doctors and hospitals for other things completely unrelated to coronavirus. Yea if you have coronavirus it may be hard to get treatment specifically for that but if you break an arm or crack a skull you can still go in for an X-Ray and cast.
  - _delirium 7y ago
    If it's something that requires a hospital, it's very likely that you won't be able to. You'll be triaged in a tent outside the hospital. If it's something your family physician can do in his/her office, you might be ok there.
    - xwdv 7y ago
      Show me where that has happened and I’ll believe it. As far as I know, broken arms are still being mended.
      - deadmetheny 7y ago
        Italy.
tabtab 7y ago
Re: The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. It has both. We pay a lot and get less for it on average than other nations. It's done a few things better, like allowing newer cancer treatments, but that's an exception.
- anfilt 7y ago
  I would say it does a lot better than just cancer treatments. However, cost and accessibility is probably the biggest problem. Health care is also just one those things that don't follow a normal supply and demand graph. Like in the extreme if you need a certain drug or procedure to survive you will pay whatever you can. You're basically held hostage. Like take a look the costs for the latest hepatitis C treatments. It's basically extortion in my opinion.
  - tabtab 7y ago
    Technology and R&D are always creating new treatments, but the new ones are rarely cheap, as is true with any new technology. The first desktop laser printers cost almost as much as a car, for example. It's good to have new options, but those options do have a price. If you are well-to-do, you have a lot more options in the US than other countries, which tend to subsidize the lower end with the higher end.
rhino369 7y ago
For example, the "poor" American system has the most ICU beds per capita than any other country. It might be cost a lot to stay in one, but that's probably they we have so many.
Tehnix 7y ago
There's a whole range: - Free and good (Scandinavia, France, and many other EU countries) - Cheap and good (South Korea) - Expensive and good (US) - Expensive and bad The US doesn't rank that high out of those options to be honest. EDIT: Actually, I think it makes sense to make a distinction between healthcare system and hospital. The US has a very poor healthcare system, while it might have good hospitals.
jaybeeayyy 7y ago
Has the US ever been in the top 10 or 20 countries ranked for best healtcare? Every time I see a ranking it's around #30...with Norway far ahead. I am certain that healtcare costs factor in to ranking. Being overly expensive makes it bad.
manicdee 7y ago
No true Scotsman? How about changing the measure of “no amount of money” because there will always be some amount of money sufficient to get you the healthcare you need — in some cases that will mean flying you out to a different country, in others it means flying a medical team and equipment to you. When a simple drug like insulin costs $1000/vial versus the $10 everywhere else, and simply setting a broken leg can set you back $30k where everywhere else that procedure costs $300, it’s clear that there are certain levels of “having money” that are insufficient to afford health care. There’s a huge problem of accessibility hidden behind employer provided health insurance.

by xwdv 7y ago

phoe-krk 7y ago

Healthcare that is not accessible without falling into debt and/or prison is poor healthcare, period. To a sick person, it doesn't matter if they can't get themselves treated because the infrastructure doesn't exist or because the infrastructure exists but is out of their reach; they're dead either way in the long run.

microtherion 7y ago
And in the particular case of an epidemic, having a significant part of the population without good access to the healthcare system is likely to create worse outcomes for EVERYONE.

outworlder 7y ago

> The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? That's not good healthcare, is it? > We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”. For some people, it is a choice between shitty healthcare, vs no healthcare.

refurb 7y ago
So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? Sure it does, it has either Medicaid (almost zero out of pocket) or heavily subsidized (up to 100%) marketplace plans.
- walkingolof 7y ago
  So if you are just above “poor” what happens then?
- robocat 7y ago
  Do Norwegian students have access to Medicaid? If they have travel insurance, would they be covered, or will an exclusion kick in? In many socialised healthcare countries, tourists will get treated for free or cheaply (although you should always have insurance: and you really really want to avoid many facilities in poor countries because they often lack funds to give decent care).
hogFeast 7y ago
Medicare. The US public health care system as a % of GDP is probably 75% of the size of Norway's total healthcare spending...and the US has a private health care system subsidising that worth 3x Norway's total spending as % of GDP. There is a lot of confused thinking on this topic.
aksss 7y ago
Well to his point the headline doesn’t say “poor healthcare system” it says poor healthcare.

_delirium 7y ago

> A true poor healthcare nation would be somewhere where no amount of money could buy you any effective treatment. That's precisely the worry here! If we don't keep COVID-19 spread low enough to stay within hospital capacity, no amount of money will be able to buy you treatment. Non-critical surgeries are already being postponed everywhere, even surgeries for earlier-stage cancers [1] – no matter how much you're willing to pay. Granted, not the normal case, but I'd consider ability to respond to pandemics part of the quality of a nation's healthcare system. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/coronavirus-covid-surgeries-canceled.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/coronavirus-covid-surg...

xwdv 7y ago
Hate to break it to you but even with COVID-19 people will still have to go to doctors and hospitals for other things completely unrelated to coronavirus. Yea if you have coronavirus it may be hard to get treatment specifically for that but if you break an arm or crack a skull you can still go in for an X-Ray and cast.
- _delirium 7y ago
  If it's something that requires a hospital, it's very likely that you won't be able to. You'll be triaged in a tent outside the hospital. If it's something your family physician can do in his/her office, you might be ok there.
  - xwdv 7y ago
    Show me where that has happened and I’ll believe it. As far as I know, broken arms are still being mended.
    - deadmetheny 7y ago
      Italy.

tabtab 7y ago

Re: The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. It has both. We pay a lot and get less for it on average than other nations. It's done a few things better, like allowing newer cancer treatments, but that's an exception.

anfilt 7y ago
I would say it does a lot better than just cancer treatments. However, cost and accessibility is probably the biggest problem. Health care is also just one those things that don't follow a normal supply and demand graph. Like in the extreme if you need a certain drug or procedure to survive you will pay whatever you can. You're basically held hostage. Like take a look the costs for the latest hepatitis C treatments. It's basically extortion in my opinion.
- tabtab 7y ago
  Technology and R&D are always creating new treatments, but the new ones are rarely cheap, as is true with any new technology. The first desktop laser printers cost almost as much as a car, for example. It's good to have new options, but those options do have a price. If you are well-to-do, you have a lot more options in the US than other countries, which tend to subsidize the lower end with the higher end.

rhino369 7y ago

For example, the "poor" American system has the most ICU beds per capita than any other country. It might be cost a lot to stay in one, but that's probably they we have so many.

Tehnix 7y ago

There's a whole range: - Free and good (Scandinavia, France, and many other EU countries) - Cheap and good (South Korea) - Expensive and good (US) - Expensive and bad The US doesn't rank that high out of those options to be honest. EDIT: Actually, I think it makes sense to make a distinction between healthcare system and hospital. The US has a very poor healthcare system, while it might have good hospitals.

jaybeeayyy 7y ago

Has the US ever been in the top 10 or 20 countries ranked for best healtcare? Every time I see a ranking it's around #30...with Norway far ahead. I am certain that healtcare costs factor in to ranking. Being overly expensive makes it bad.

manicdee 7y ago

No true Scotsman? How about changing the measure of “no amount of money” because there will always be some amount of money sufficient to get you the healthcare you need — in some cases that will mean flying you out to a different country, in others it means flying a medical team and equipment to you. When a simple drug like insulin costs $1000/vial versus the $10 everywhere else, and simply setting a broken leg can set you back $30k where everywhere else that procedure costs $300, it’s clear that there are certain levels of “having money” that are insufficient to afford health care. There’s a huge problem of accessibility hidden behind employer provided health insurance.