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Hmm maybe I can give some advice here. The key is to just not care whether or not people are just pretending to like you. "Just don't give a fuck" sounds really

Hmm maybe I can give some advice here. The key is to just not care whether or not people are just pretending to like you. "Just don't give a fuck" sounds really trite but I really think caring too much about other people's feelings is an anti-super power. I find what really helps me is just assuming that the other person doesn't like me, and then making a conscious decision to make the effort to make them like me. This is almost the opposite of what people say, "just be confident". I think being attractive (personality) and likable is a trainable social skill, and once you do it often enough the effort becomes effortless. Of course a mind reading device to skip the presentation stuff would also be nice.

choxi 7y ago
How do you both "don't give a fuck" while also "mak[ing] the effort to make them like me"?
- ak39 7y ago
  That’s always the problem with these forms of obliquitous advice - they are paradoxical. I’m not saying they don’t work or are necessarily to be dismissed because they seem practically impossible because they are on the surface self-limiting. I’m just saying that’s what they all share. Zen. Buddhism. Sufism. Stoicism. Minimalism. Less is more. You have to experience it to know it. The anti-thesis of science.
  - openfuture 7y ago
    Actually, the manifestation of science.. Science is about testing (experiencing) your hypothesis not memorizing dogma. If someone says: “gravity is a thing” then as a scientist you think through the consequences, if something doesn't align with your expectation then you design an experiment. This way you realize the truth yourself, problem is that people use the word 'science' as 'that thing that other people do to find out the truth' (where 'truth' is the thing you are supposed to believe unquestioningly since you are not a priest, sorry.. scientist).
    - watwut 7y ago
      Scientists learn awful lot without checking from books, articles and talks. Each scientist tests and verifies only tiny little part of he or she considers science. And they typically assume that non cutting edge parts are correct, unless there is very strong reason to doubt that. It does cause too much inertia in some cases and it can be hard to overturn old theories, but it also makes science overall possible.
- usui 7y ago
  I believe the paradox you point out is taking it to the extreme. This is the parent poster's sentiment: You don't care deeply about a rejection outcome, but you care enough about a positive outcome to give it a shot and see what happens. If it happens to be the case that the receiving party rejects you, you should not care and move on easily. I think the benefit of making a good friend far outweighs the cost of rejection, so much so that we are willing to give it a few hundred shots. For some people, the chances are so low that the chances range in thousands, not hundreds, and then they start giving up.
- zentiggr 7y ago
  Think about it as "putting in the effort could be a net positive, if it works out, but if it doesn't it's not a big deal and it's fine to try again with someone else". Worth the effort, but not attaching overly much weight or importance to the outcome.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  You can try to make them like you but if they don’t it’s fine too and you can move on. It’s like sports. For some people losing is the worst thing and they go crazy. Other people like playing but they are fine losing and won’t stop playing. I have some level of social anxiety and for me rejection can be devastating for a long time. Other people I know will just move on from that rejection “no big deal”
- wwweston 7y ago
  Definitely some tension between the two. Maybe another way of saying it is that it's helpful to simultaneously work toward a specific outcome that you would enjoy or prefer, but not be attached to in a way that'd create resentment if it doesn't happen. Doing this when it comes to investing in relationships seems to decrease the sense of pressure and increase the sense of possibility and fun.
- gowld 7y ago
  Emotional distance. Talk to a doctor or criminal lawyer. An important part of the job is to work really hard without getting distracted by emotional response to the details.
- rchaud 7y ago
  > How do you both "don't give a fuck" while also "mak[ing] the effort to make them like me"? I'd say by doing the latter before the former. Make an attempt at socializing/conversation first. If you get the vibe that the person isn't interested, you can move on to someone else, without bitterness, anger or disappointment. Just because it didn't happen with that person, doesn't mean it won't happen with the next person too.
- JadeNB 7y ago
  One can try something without investing in others' perception of its success. I often make an effort to be likeable, but if people don't like me, then that's often their problem, not mine.
gchamonlive 7y ago
> caring too much about other people's feelings is an anti-super power How much is too much and how little is being plainly emotionally irresponsible? > just assuming that the other person doesn't like me, and then making a conscious decision to make the effort to make them like me How would you manage trying too much? > I think being attractive (personality) and likable is a trainable social skill, and once you do it often enough the effort becomes effortless. How about people that engage in social activities everyday and the social anxiety is always there? > Of course a mind reading device to skip the presentation stuff would also be nice. Even if you had such a device, would you be able to interpret what you read from someone else's mind? I really think the problem is more complex than what you are advising here.
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
  > How much is too much and how little is being plainly emotionally irresponsible? Don't have a definitive answer to this one, but perhaps callously I would say care more about the feelings of people who already reciprocates your attention. You are under no obligation to care about the feelings of people who don't care about yours. So when you are just starting out trying to make friends with someone, don't worry about their feelings at all, but you should feel more responsibility after you have established a trust relationship. > How would you manage trying too much? Just experience, even if you mess up a few times and come across as trying too hard it's ok. Really not the end of the world, people perceive that embarrassment to be more important than it is. Most people should like your effort, and for those that don't you can adjust. Sometimes those people even end up missing your effort when you stop trying. > How about people that engage in social activities everyday and the social anxiety is always there? It's possible that person did it too late? I know the mind is less malleable as we get into our 20s, training to operate fluently in society is typically done in middle school. I'm not a neuroscientist so I can't say with any authority, but the effort->effortless might not apply to people who start the process later in life. > Even if you had such a device, would you be able to interpret what you read from someone else's mind? I spend enough time thinking about my own feelings and understanding them that I think I would recognize the same in other people. I don't think other people have uniquely complex emotions and perspectives that I never experienced, but if I got a device I would probably be even more of an expert at recognizing other people's emotions. Sort of like how babies these days grow up with ipads and are more digital natives, if this device actually exists the next generation would be emotion-reading natives. Hope my reply was useful.
fellowniusmonk 7y ago
There is no conflict about not giving a fuck and being agreeable and likable, you see most people think of "not giving a fuck" as some sort of punk rock attitude, but really "not giving a fuck" is the same as not having attachment to external judgement, it can be fun, exciting, imaginative and engaged in-the-moment freedom. It's about turning off the inner self evaluating voice like you must do for certain activities (improv for example.) Be "Agreeable", be a good person, be a good conversationalist (by learning about a wide range of things and speaking about them with curiosity and excitement instead of to show off what you know), smile and have fun, interesting, or silly things other people can join in on, be slightly curious about the person in front of you. Don't do this for them, or to make them like you, do this because you think being awesome and connected has inherent beauty and you want to be more beautiful. Also don't give a fuck, you see, that gives you the chance to be silly and fun, if you aren't self conscious and a few other people join you, people will have fun in spite of themselves, it's like everyone of every body type wearing string bikinis in Brazil, normalize a fun free environment and people will eventually chill and realize they don't have to cover their "imperfections" and will get outside their own heads a little bit.

choxi 7y ago

How do you both "don't give a fuck" while also "mak[ing] the effort to make them like me"?

ak39 7y ago
That’s always the problem with these forms of obliquitous advice - they are paradoxical. I’m not saying they don’t work or are necessarily to be dismissed because they seem practically impossible because they are on the surface self-limiting. I’m just saying that’s what they all share. Zen. Buddhism. Sufism. Stoicism. Minimalism. Less is more. You have to experience it to know it. The anti-thesis of science.
- openfuture 7y ago
  Actually, the manifestation of science.. Science is about testing (experiencing) your hypothesis not memorizing dogma. If someone says: “gravity is a thing” then as a scientist you think through the consequences, if something doesn't align with your expectation then you design an experiment. This way you realize the truth yourself, problem is that people use the word 'science' as 'that thing that other people do to find out the truth' (where 'truth' is the thing you are supposed to believe unquestioningly since you are not a priest, sorry.. scientist).
  - watwut 7y ago
    Scientists learn awful lot without checking from books, articles and talks. Each scientist tests and verifies only tiny little part of he or she considers science. And they typically assume that non cutting edge parts are correct, unless there is very strong reason to doubt that. It does cause too much inertia in some cases and it can be hard to overturn old theories, but it also makes science overall possible.
usui 7y ago
I believe the paradox you point out is taking it to the extreme. This is the parent poster's sentiment: You don't care deeply about a rejection outcome, but you care enough about a positive outcome to give it a shot and see what happens. If it happens to be the case that the receiving party rejects you, you should not care and move on easily. I think the benefit of making a good friend far outweighs the cost of rejection, so much so that we are willing to give it a few hundred shots. For some people, the chances are so low that the chances range in thousands, not hundreds, and then they start giving up.
zentiggr 7y ago
Think about it as "putting in the effort could be a net positive, if it works out, but if it doesn't it's not a big deal and it's fine to try again with someone else". Worth the effort, but not attaching overly much weight or importance to the outcome.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
You can try to make them like you but if they don’t it’s fine too and you can move on. It’s like sports. For some people losing is the worst thing and they go crazy. Other people like playing but they are fine losing and won’t stop playing. I have some level of social anxiety and for me rejection can be devastating for a long time. Other people I know will just move on from that rejection “no big deal”
wwweston 7y ago
Definitely some tension between the two. Maybe another way of saying it is that it's helpful to simultaneously work toward a specific outcome that you would enjoy or prefer, but not be attached to in a way that'd create resentment if it doesn't happen. Doing this when it comes to investing in relationships seems to decrease the sense of pressure and increase the sense of possibility and fun.
gowld 7y ago
Emotional distance. Talk to a doctor or criminal lawyer. An important part of the job is to work really hard without getting distracted by emotional response to the details.
rchaud 7y ago
> How do you both "don't give a fuck" while also "mak[ing] the effort to make them like me"? I'd say by doing the latter before the former. Make an attempt at socializing/conversation first. If you get the vibe that the person isn't interested, you can move on to someone else, without bitterness, anger or disappointment. Just because it didn't happen with that person, doesn't mean it won't happen with the next person too.
JadeNB 7y ago
One can try something without investing in others' perception of its success. I often make an effort to be likeable, but if people don't like me, then that's often their problem, not mine.

gchamonlive 7y ago

> caring too much about other people's feelings is an anti-super power How much is too much and how little is being plainly emotionally irresponsible? > just assuming that the other person doesn't like me, and then making a conscious decision to make the effort to make them like me How would you manage trying too much? > I think being attractive (personality) and likable is a trainable social skill, and once you do it often enough the effort becomes effortless. How about people that engage in social activities everyday and the social anxiety is always there? > Of course a mind reading device to skip the presentation stuff would also be nice. Even if you had such a device, would you be able to interpret what you read from someone else's mind? I really think the problem is more complex than what you are advising here.

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
> How much is too much and how little is being plainly emotionally irresponsible? Don't have a definitive answer to this one, but perhaps callously I would say care more about the feelings of people who already reciprocates your attention. You are under no obligation to care about the feelings of people who don't care about yours. So when you are just starting out trying to make friends with someone, don't worry about their feelings at all, but you should feel more responsibility after you have established a trust relationship. > How would you manage trying too much? Just experience, even if you mess up a few times and come across as trying too hard it's ok. Really not the end of the world, people perceive that embarrassment to be more important than it is. Most people should like your effort, and for those that don't you can adjust. Sometimes those people even end up missing your effort when you stop trying. > How about people that engage in social activities everyday and the social anxiety is always there? It's possible that person did it too late? I know the mind is less malleable as we get into our 20s, training to operate fluently in society is typically done in middle school. I'm not a neuroscientist so I can't say with any authority, but the effort->effortless might not apply to people who start the process later in life. > Even if you had such a device, would you be able to interpret what you read from someone else's mind? I spend enough time thinking about my own feelings and understanding them that I think I would recognize the same in other people. I don't think other people have uniquely complex emotions and perspectives that I never experienced, but if I got a device I would probably be even more of an expert at recognizing other people's emotions. Sort of like how babies these days grow up with ipads and are more digital natives, if this device actually exists the next generation would be emotion-reading natives. Hope my reply was useful.

fellowniusmonk 7y ago

There is no conflict about not giving a fuck and being agreeable and likable, you see most people think of "not giving a fuck" as some sort of punk rock attitude, but really "not giving a fuck" is the same as not having attachment to external judgement, it can be fun, exciting, imaginative and engaged in-the-moment freedom. It's about turning off the inner self evaluating voice like you must do for certain activities (improv for example.) Be "Agreeable", be a good person, be a good conversationalist (by learning about a wide range of things and speaking about them with curiosity and excitement instead of to show off what you know), smile and have fun, interesting, or silly things other people can join in on, be slightly curious about the person in front of you. Don't do this for them, or to make them like you, do this because you think being awesome and connected has inherent beauty and you want to be more beautiful. Also don't give a fuck, you see, that gives you the chance to be silly and fun, if you aren't self conscious and a few other people join you, people will have fun in spite of themselves, it's like everyone of every body type wearing string bikinis in Brazil, normalize a fun free environment and people will eventually chill and realize they don't have to cover their "imperfections" and will get outside their own heads a little bit.