5 ms·

Norwegian asks students in poor healthcare countries like USA to return

72 points by NicoJuicy 7y ago

phoe-krk 7y ago
"NTNU strongly recommends that all NTNU students who are outside Norway return home. This applies especially if you are staying in a country with poorly developed health services and infrastructure and/or collective infrastructure, for example the USA." In one way, it is stating the obvious, since HN submissions about the US health care have been aplenty; in another way, this seems to be a genuine show of care for the students stuck in the US; in yet another, political shots have been fired, and USA starts being perceived as the third world country that it is with regard to its public health care services. (Unless you happen to be rich, which you likely don't.)
- tyfon 7y ago
  They're not just concerned about health care, they're concerned about the whole infrastructure in the US. They just formulated the wording a bit strange. Collective infrastructure for instance is probably "public transportation" since "kollektivtransport" in Norwegian is public transportation. I'm not taking any sides here but personally I know where I'd like to be if I become sick. I might actually be already, I've started to have chest pains and slime balls and a slight fever last few days.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    As much as I love public transport, universal lack of it accompanied by having nearly 1 car per person on average during pandemic is good.
    - tyfon 7y ago
      These are students, they don't have cars.. At least not here maybe they buy one when they get to the US :)
- gdubs 7y ago
  Maybe a lesson learned from all of this is that being rich can't buy you herd immunity, and the health of millions of uninsured people will affect your life. And when overwhelmed hospitals are triaging in the moment based on who has the highest chance of survival, it's unclear that a credit score is going to factor in to the decision.
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    Do you know who I am?! I'm J Paul Getty.... Age? 80. (hypothetical I know he died in 70s...). And you? I'm 40 with two kids.. Wife's a homemaker, I'm sole breadwinner. Dr... 2nd one is stronger, and has young kids to watch for...move him to top of list... Getty: But I'm J. Paul Getty. Dr: Sorry, your chances are less of survival, you're more of a strain on the system, it's just survival of the fittest, kind of like how capitalism works, you get it right?
dbhattar 7y ago
I know it is politically correct nowadays to diss US healthcare system. But in the current pandemic, it is more about government preparedness. If you let an exponentially infectious pandemic run wild without any curtailing mechanism, no matter how sophisticated the healthcare system is, it is bound to get overwhelmed.
- tabtab 7y ago
  Many in the US have no healthcare insurance, or watered-down plans, recently permitted by GOP.
  - dbhattar 7y ago
    My point is no matter whether you have insurance or not, if hospitals are overloaded, you will not be treated. Just look at situation in Italy.
    - tabtab 7y ago
      Until it all runs out, I'd rather start with a situation where I have health insurances versus a situation where I don't. In other words, I'd rather try to escape the encroaching fire in a Toyota than a Yugo.
      - dbhattar 7y ago
        It is good to have insurance. I have one. But when I was trying to reach a doctor during the weekend because I had bad cough and was very worried, I couldn’t get through. The line was overloaded. At that time it hit me that, in case of emergency, different set of rules apply. Having insurance becomes almost irrelevant.
        tabtab 7y ago
        Corona has swamped a lot things.
    - 7y ago
xwdv 7y ago
This is an inflammatory headline for no reason. The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. A true poor healthcare nation would be somewhere where no amount of money could buy you any effective treatment. We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”.
- phoe-krk 7y ago
  Healthcare that is not accessible without falling into debt and/or prison is poor healthcare, period. To a sick person, it doesn't matter if they can't get themselves treated because the infrastructure doesn't exist or because the infrastructure exists but is out of their reach; they're dead either way in the long run.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    And in the particular case of an epidemic, having a significant part of the population without good access to the healthcare system is likely to create worse outcomes for EVERYONE.
- outworlder 7y ago
  > The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? That's not good healthcare, is it? > We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”. For some people, it is a choice between shitty healthcare, vs no healthcare.
  - refurb 7y ago
    So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? Sure it does, it has either Medicaid (almost zero out of pocket) or heavily subsidized (up to 100%) marketplace plans.
    - walkingolof 7y ago
ck2 7y ago
Well the other angle is the US public just doesn't give a damn about anyone else in general. There is absolutely no change in behavior here. In weeks if they were stacking bodies for lack of storage space, I am still not sure people here would change their behavior, everyone feels special/priviledged and not affected until it suddenly hits them.
refurb 7y ago
Cancer death survival rates (US vs. Norway)[1]: Prostate (97% vs 86%) Breast (89% vs 86%) Cervix (63% vs 71%) Rectum (64% vs 65%) Colon (65% vs 62%) Leukemia (51% vs 53%) [1]https://ourworldindata.org/cancer https://ourworldindata.org/cancer
- seemslegit 7y ago
  Cancer death survival rates are universally 0%
  - TheUndead96 7y ago
    ಠoಠ
    - seemslegit 7y ago
      You're within the statistical margin of error.
- robert_foss 7y ago
  For those who can afford US healthcare.
  - rpiguy 7y ago
    All are treated regardless.
    - robert_foss 7y ago
      You're right, US healthcare treats everyone as equals.
- owenmarshall 7y ago
  I’d be curious to see for each country the average stage at which a persons cancer was detected, and the average personal financial impact for treatment.
- 7y ago
RickHull 7y ago
Actually, the US is probably the best country for COVID-19 treatment due to the number of ventilators per capita. 52 ventilators per 100k residents. Italy has only 5 per 100k. Not sure what Norway has. https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/predicting-american-icu-saturation-during-covid-19-f45ec1672571 https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/predicting-america...
- anfilt 7y ago
  Like that's good to hear. That's an order magnitude more, but still pandemic could easily overwhelm what is available.
datashow 7y ago
Critical Care Beds Per Capita 8 vs 34.7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-co... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8
rococode 7y ago
Someone on Reddit largely debunked this as a (possibly intentionally) bad translation, leading to the 32k upvote thread on /r/worldnews being removed: Original comment, copy pasted below: https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/fj61zf/norwegian_university_tells_students_in_us_to/fklbz6w/ https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/fj61zf/norwegian... ===== FAKE NEWS! They are talking about "collective infrastructure" which is a poor translation of the norwegian term "kollektivtransport" or "kollektiv infrastruktur". The Norwegian original makes it abundantly clear, as they mention an example of: "where it could be difficult to get to the airport without your own car". > I tråd med rådet fra UD vil jeg som rektor sterkt anbefale alle NTNU-studenter som befinner seg utenfor Norge om å reise hjem. Det gjelder spesielt hvis du oppholder deg i et land med dårlig utbygd helsevesen. Det gjelder også for land med dårlig kollektiv infrastruktur som for eksempel USA der det kan være vanskelig å komme seg til flyplass hvis du ikke har bil. Det samme gjelder hvis du ikke har helseforsikring. Proper translation would be: > In accordance with the advice from the UD, I as a principal strongly urge every NTNU-student that is outside Norway to come home. This especially applies if you are in a country with poorly developed health care. It also applies for countries with poor public transport, like for example the US where it can be difficult to get to an airport without your own car. The same applies if you do not have health insurance. I tried to translalte word by word, rather than getting the grammar correctly, hence the strange wording.
loopz 7y ago
What people miss is this: You don't want to be sick in America, or abroad generally. It could turn out very very expensive. There are travel insurances, but they have limits. In rare circumstances, this can happen in every country.

72 points by NicoJuicy 7y ago

"NTNU strongly recommends that all NTNU students who are outside Norway return home. This applies especially if you are staying in a country with poorly developed health services and infrastructure and/or collective infrastructure, for example the USA." In one way, it is stating the obvious, since HN submissions about the US health care have been aplenty; in another way, this seems to be a genuine show of care for the students stuck in the US; in yet another, political shots have been fired, and USA starts being perceived as the third world country that it is with regard to its public health care services. (Unless you happen to be rich, which you likely don't.)

tyfon 7y ago
They're not just concerned about health care, they're concerned about the whole infrastructure in the US. They just formulated the wording a bit strange. Collective infrastructure for instance is probably "public transportation" since "kollektivtransport" in Norwegian is public transportation. I'm not taking any sides here but personally I know where I'd like to be if I become sick. I might actually be already, I've started to have chest pains and slime balls and a slight fever last few days.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  As much as I love public transport, universal lack of it accompanied by having nearly 1 car per person on average during pandemic is good.
  - tyfon 7y ago
    These are students, they don't have cars.. At least not here maybe they buy one when they get to the US :)
gdubs 7y ago
Maybe a lesson learned from all of this is that being rich can't buy you herd immunity, and the health of millions of uninsured people will affect your life. And when overwhelmed hospitals are triaging in the moment based on who has the highest chance of survival, it's unclear that a credit score is going to factor in to the decision.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Do you know who I am?! I'm J Paul Getty.... Age? 80. (hypothetical I know he died in 70s...). And you? I'm 40 with two kids.. Wife's a homemaker, I'm sole breadwinner. Dr... 2nd one is stronger, and has young kids to watch for...move him to top of list... Getty: But I'm J. Paul Getty. Dr: Sorry, your chances are less of survival, you're more of a strain on the system, it's just survival of the fittest, kind of like how capitalism works, you get it right?

dbhattar 7y ago

I know it is politically correct nowadays to diss US healthcare system. But in the current pandemic, it is more about government preparedness. If you let an exponentially infectious pandemic run wild without any curtailing mechanism, no matter how sophisticated the healthcare system is, it is bound to get overwhelmed.

tabtab 7y ago
Many in the US have no healthcare insurance, or watered-down plans, recently permitted by GOP.
- dbhattar 7y ago
  My point is no matter whether you have insurance or not, if hospitals are overloaded, you will not be treated. Just look at situation in Italy.
  - tabtab 7y ago
    Until it all runs out, I'd rather start with a situation where I have health insurances versus a situation where I don't. In other words, I'd rather try to escape the encroaching fire in a Toyota than a Yugo.
    - dbhattar 7y ago
      It is good to have insurance. I have one. But when I was trying to reach a doctor during the weekend because I had bad cough and was very worried, I couldn’t get through. The line was overloaded. At that time it hit me that, in case of emergency, different set of rules apply. Having insurance becomes almost irrelevant.
      - tabtab 7y ago
        Corona has swamped a lot things.
  - 7y ago

xwdv 7y ago

This is an inflammatory headline for no reason. The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. A true poor healthcare nation would be somewhere where no amount of money could buy you any effective treatment. We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”.

phoe-krk 7y ago
Healthcare that is not accessible without falling into debt and/or prison is poor healthcare, period. To a sick person, it doesn't matter if they can't get themselves treated because the infrastructure doesn't exist or because the infrastructure exists but is out of their reach; they're dead either way in the long run.
- microtherion 7y ago
  And in the particular case of an epidemic, having a significant part of the population without good access to the healthcare system is likely to create worse outcomes for EVERYONE.
outworlder 7y ago
> The USA does not have “poor healthcare”, it has expensive healthcare. So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? That's not good healthcare, is it? > We cannot allow people to think that shitty but cheap and freely available healthcare somehow qualifies as a nation with “good healthcare”. For some people, it is a choice between shitty healthcare, vs no healthcare.
- refurb 7y ago
  So... it does not have healthcare for the poor? Sure it does, it has either Medicaid (almost zero out of pocket) or heavily subsidized (up to 100%) marketplace plans.
  - walkingolof 7y ago

ck2 7y ago

Well the other angle is the US public just doesn't give a damn about anyone else in general. There is absolutely no change in behavior here. In weeks if they were stacking bodies for lack of storage space, I am still not sure people here would change their behavior, everyone feels special/priviledged and not affected until it suddenly hits them.

refurb 7y ago

Cancer death survival rates (US vs. Norway)[1]: Prostate (97% vs 86%) Breast (89% vs 86%) Cervix (63% vs 71%) Rectum (64% vs 65%) Colon (65% vs 62%) Leukemia (51% vs 53%) [1]https://ourworldindata.org/cancer https://ourworldindata.org/cancer

seemslegit 7y ago
Cancer death survival rates are universally 0%
- TheUndead96 7y ago
  ಠoಠ
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    You're within the statistical margin of error.
robert_foss 7y ago
For those who can afford US healthcare.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  All are treated regardless.
  - robert_foss 7y ago
    You're right, US healthcare treats everyone as equals.
owenmarshall 7y ago
I’d be curious to see for each country the average stage at which a persons cancer was detected, and the average personal financial impact for treatment.
7y ago

RickHull 7y ago

Actually, the US is probably the best country for COVID-19 treatment due to the number of ventilators per capita. 52 ventilators per 100k residents. Italy has only 5 per 100k. Not sure what Norway has. https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/predicting-american-icu-saturation-during-covid-19-f45ec1672571 https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/predicting-america...

anfilt 7y ago
Like that's good to hear. That's an order magnitude more, but still pandemic could easily overwhelm what is available.

datashow 7y ago

Critical Care Beds Per Capita 8 vs 34.7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-co... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8

rococode 7y ago

Someone on Reddit largely debunked this as a (possibly intentionally) bad translation, leading to the 32k upvote thread on /r/worldnews being removed: Original comment, copy pasted below: https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/fj61zf/norwegian_university_tells_students_in_us_to/fklbz6w/ https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/fj61zf/norwegian... ===== FAKE NEWS! They are talking about "collective infrastructure" which is a poor translation of the norwegian term "kollektivtransport" or "kollektiv infrastruktur". The Norwegian original makes it abundantly clear, as they mention an example of: "where it could be difficult to get to the airport without your own car". > I tråd med rådet fra UD vil jeg som rektor sterkt anbefale alle NTNU-studenter som befinner seg utenfor Norge om å reise hjem. Det gjelder spesielt hvis du oppholder deg i et land med dårlig utbygd helsevesen. Det gjelder også for land med dårlig kollektiv infrastruktur som for eksempel USA der det kan være vanskelig å komme seg til flyplass hvis du ikke har bil. Det samme gjelder hvis du ikke har helseforsikring. Proper translation would be: > In accordance with the advice from the UD, I as a principal strongly urge every NTNU-student that is outside Norway to come home. This especially applies if you are in a country with poorly developed health care. It also applies for countries with poor public transport, like for example the US where it can be difficult to get to an airport without your own car. The same applies if you do not have health insurance. I tried to translalte word by word, rather than getting the grammar correctly, hence the strange wording.

loopz 7y ago

What people miss is this: You don't want to be sick in America, or abroad generally. It could turn out very very expensive. There are travel insurances, but they have limits. In rare circumstances, this can happen in every country.