4 ms·

Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less

Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less free market than a citizens dividend, it just ensures that the wealthy get first dibs on the new money and then the rest of us pay interest on it. Steve Keen's idea for a modern debt jubilee is more important for the long term growth of the economy: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ I get where you are coming from, but the current system is completely out of control, as always happens with a usury-based economy.

clairity 7y ago
this angle of where to inject money into the system is the only potentially reasonable argument i've heard for UBI so far (but doesn't address its many other adverse consequences). without much consideration by us commoners, we've come to accept that money must be injected into the economy through large financial institutions that gatekeep and rentseek. money is literally the intermediary for trading the fruits of labor (not capital) with each other, and the closer money is injected into the system at the point value is created (when labor turns raw materials into desirable goods), the better.
- vearwhershuh 7y ago
  I agree. The best thing would be a modern debt jubilee, coupled with direct payment for public labor with debt-free money from the government. This was implemented by a certain unmentionable and won him the widespread adulation of his country despite his other rather significant faults.
Gunax 7y ago
Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that. I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?). My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would cost about 5 trillion per year.
- vearwhershuh 7y ago
  We can afford it if we print the money, that is, it is debt-free money. The fear if we print the money is inflation, but, as Steve Keen has shown, in the current situation inflation isn't going to happen, especially if we put the focus of this money on paying down debt. I really highly recommend reading Keen's stuff.

clairity 7y ago

this angle of where to inject money into the system is the only potentially reasonable argument i've heard for UBI so far (but doesn't address its many other adverse consequences). without much consideration by us commoners, we've come to accept that money must be injected into the economy through large financial institutions that gatekeep and rentseek. money is literally the intermediary for trading the fruits of labor (not capital) with each other, and the closer money is injected into the system at the point value is created (when labor turns raw materials into desirable goods), the better.

vearwhershuh 7y ago
I agree. The best thing would be a modern debt jubilee, coupled with direct payment for public labor with debt-free money from the government. This was implemented by a certain unmentionable and won him the widespread adulation of his country despite his other rather significant faults.

Gunax 7y ago

Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that. I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?). My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would cost about 5 trillion per year.

vearwhershuh 7y ago
We can afford it if we print the money, that is, it is debt-free money. The fear if we print the money is inflation, but, as Steve Keen has shown, in the current situation inflation isn't going to happen, especially if we put the focus of this money on paying down debt. I really highly recommend reading Keen's stuff.