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This is how we should manage the money supply, and it should be monthly. Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a

This is how we should manage the money supply, and it should be monthly. Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a wind-down of the debt bubble. Maybe take Steve Keen's idea and require that a certain portion of the payment be used to extinguish any debts. Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot.

Gunax 7y ago
Let's make it 10k per month, then we can all be wealthy.
- vearwhershuh 7y ago
  Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less free market than a citizens dividend, it just ensures that the wealthy get first dibs on the new money and then the rest of us pay interest on it. Steve Keen's idea for a modern debt jubilee is more important for the long term growth of the economy: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ I get where you are coming from, but the current system is completely out of control, as always happens with a usury-based economy.
  - clairity 7y ago
    this angle of where to inject money into the system is the only potentially reasonable argument i've heard for UBI so far (but doesn't address its many other adverse consequences). without much consideration by us commoners, we've come to accept that money must be injected into the economy through large financial institutions that gatekeep and rentseek. money is literally the intermediary for trading the fruits of labor (not capital) with each other, and the closer money is injected into the system at the point value is created (when labor turns raw materials into desirable goods), the better.
    - vearwhershuh 7y ago
      I agree. The best thing would be a modern debt jubilee, coupled with direct payment for public labor with debt-free money from the government. This was implemented by a certain unmentionable and won him the widespread adulation of his country despite his other rather significant faults.
  - Gunax 7y ago
    Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that. I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?). My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would cost about 5 trillion per year.
    - vearwhershuh 7y ago
      We can afford it if we print the money, that is, it is debt-free money. The fear if we print the money is inflation, but, as Steve Keen has shown, in the current situation inflation isn't going to happen, especially if we put the focus of this money on paying down debt. I really highly recommend reading Keen's stuff.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  IF everyone is wealthy, the prices go up, and everyone is poor again. We can only afford Tesla's now, because rich people could afford them years ago. Same with all the other things we spend our money on ..
  - olyjohn 7y ago
    I dunno who this we is. I can't afford a Tesla.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Are you scared that others will also get money, just like you? Any noble status to lose or something?? What is this comment? I seriously don't get it. Government money is money by the people for the people.
  - Gunax 7y ago
    No, right now government money is debt that has to be repaid plus interest by us or our children. I don't want to get money for the same reason I don't want to go and run up personal debt.
    - neuronic 7y ago
      Government debt does not work like personal debt. At all. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/01/14/why-public-debt-is-not-like-credit-card-debt/ http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/01/14/why-public-...
xyzzyz 7y ago
> Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a wind-down of the debt bubble. There are three ways to make it possible: 1) issue government debt to pay for it 2) increase taxes to cover it 3) print money to cover it. Number 3) will cause significant inflation, so it will effectively be paid for by tax on cash savings. High inflation is really bad, it’s a terrible idea. 1) has the problem of only working temporarily: you cannot indebt yourself indefinitely, at some point the service payments will become simply untenable. 2) is the only one practical, but the only way to make it work in practice is to increase taxes all across the population. In result, this will be $1000 monthly only for the very poor. For people around the median, this will balance out to zero or negative. So, the only way this destroys debt bubble is by 1), inflation destroying cash debt. This is terrible: businesses will not have access to debt to finance operations, mortgages will not be accessible for people without significant savings to buy houses, etc. All around, a terrible idea.
- whack 7y ago
  The fed's job is literally to control the money supply, which includes expanding it at certain times. Currently they are doing it through various transactions and loans conducted with other banks. The proposal is to simply give cash to citizens instead. Saying that this will lead to inflation is moot - this proposal will only take effect when inflation is explicitly desired. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/08/fight-recession.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/08/fight-recession.asp
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  > There are three ways to make it possible: 1) issue government debt to pay for it 2) increase taxes to cover it 3) print money to cover it. There is another way to do it without issuing debt, but while still controlling monetary policy. 1. Provision "dividend.federalreserve.gov" CRUD app (or just dividend.gov for convenience). Create "Fed" accounts, very similar to what you get with a Social Security Administration account at https://ssa.gov https://ssa.gov. Accept routing and account numbers from citizens. Issue debit cards with no fees to the unbanked. Provide local service at Social Security offices. 2. The Fed slowly buys up income producing assets (equities, fixed income, etc), and distributes the gains monthly to everyone. Many central banks go on buying binges to support asset prices already (the Bank of Japan already owns a significant amount of the Nikkei [1]). You will eventually arrive at a UBI supported by the economic productivity of your country. Alaska does something smaller with oil revenue already [2]. This also keeps with Fed mandates to maximize employment and keep inflation around their 2% target (inflation will never increase because of structural demographics, the shift to a service economy, the transition to EVs and renewables, etc). [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bank-of-Japan-to-be-top-shareholder-of-Japan-stocks https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bank-of-Japan-to-be... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
> Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot. So, refresh my memory: Was Reagan talking about this? Ford? (People attempted to shoot him twice, but not hit.) Kennedy? For that matter, has a president ever seriously proposed this? You sound like you're just making stuff up.
- banads 7y ago
  Dr. King was talking about this shortly before he was shot.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    True, but he wasn't president, nor running for it.
magduf 7y ago
It sure would be ironic if the Trump Administration is the one that gets credit in the history books for passing the first large-scale UBI.
magduf 7y ago
>Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot. What are you talking about? Unless I'm forgetting someone, there have only been 2 assassinations, and one attempted one that famously failed. Lincoln was assassinated by someone who was mad about the Civil War. Reagan was shot by Sirhan Sirhan, but I doubt that's what you're talking about. Kennedy might be what you're talking about, but there's a lot of theories about what might have motivated that if you believe that it was orchestrated by someone and not the sole work of Oswald, with the biggest one I think being that Kennedy was planning to pull out of Vietnam. Anyway, even if your claim has merit, that's only a single data point.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  You're forgetting half of assassinated presidents. Nobody cares about President Garfield and President McKinley, it seems.

Gunax 7y ago

Let's make it 10k per month, then we can all be wealthy.

vearwhershuh 7y ago
Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less free market than a citizens dividend, it just ensures that the wealthy get first dibs on the new money and then the rest of us pay interest on it. Steve Keen's idea for a modern debt jubilee is more important for the long term growth of the economy: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/manifesto/ I get where you are coming from, but the current system is completely out of control, as always happens with a usury-based economy.
- clairity 7y ago
  this angle of where to inject money into the system is the only potentially reasonable argument i've heard for UBI so far (but doesn't address its many other adverse consequences). without much consideration by us commoners, we've come to accept that money must be injected into the economy through large financial institutions that gatekeep and rentseek. money is literally the intermediary for trading the fruits of labor (not capital) with each other, and the closer money is injected into the system at the point value is created (when labor turns raw materials into desirable goods), the better.
  - vearwhershuh 7y ago
    I agree. The best thing would be a modern debt jubilee, coupled with direct payment for public labor with debt-free money from the government. This was implemented by a certain unmentionable and won him the widespread adulation of his country despite his other rather significant faults.
- Gunax 7y ago
  Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that. I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?). My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would cost about 5 trillion per year.
  - vearwhershuh 7y ago
    We can afford it if we print the money, that is, it is debt-free money. The fear if we print the money is inflation, but, as Steve Keen has shown, in the current situation inflation isn't going to happen, especially if we put the focus of this money on paying down debt. I really highly recommend reading Keen's stuff.
fit2rule 7y ago
IF everyone is wealthy, the prices go up, and everyone is poor again. We can only afford Tesla's now, because rich people could afford them years ago. Same with all the other things we spend our money on ..
- olyjohn 7y ago
  I dunno who this we is. I can't afford a Tesla.
neuronic 7y ago
Are you scared that others will also get money, just like you? Any noble status to lose or something?? What is this comment? I seriously don't get it. Government money is money by the people for the people.
- Gunax 7y ago
  No, right now government money is debt that has to be repaid plus interest by us or our children. I don't want to get money for the same reason I don't want to go and run up personal debt.
  - neuronic 7y ago
    Government debt does not work like personal debt. At all. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/01/14/why-public-debt-is-not-like-credit-card-debt/ http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/01/14/why-public-...

xyzzyz 7y ago

> Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a wind-down of the debt bubble. There are three ways to make it possible: 1) issue government debt to pay for it 2) increase taxes to cover it 3) print money to cover it. Number 3) will cause significant inflation, so it will effectively be paid for by tax on cash savings. High inflation is really bad, it’s a terrible idea. 1) has the problem of only working temporarily: you cannot indebt yourself indefinitely, at some point the service payments will become simply untenable. 2) is the only one practical, but the only way to make it work in practice is to increase taxes all across the population. In result, this will be $1000 monthly only for the very poor. For people around the median, this will balance out to zero or negative. So, the only way this destroys debt bubble is by 1), inflation destroying cash debt. This is terrible: businesses will not have access to debt to finance operations, mortgages will not be accessible for people without significant savings to buy houses, etc. All around, a terrible idea.

whack 7y ago
The fed's job is literally to control the money supply, which includes expanding it at certain times. Currently they are doing it through various transactions and loans conducted with other banks. The proposal is to simply give cash to citizens instead. Saying that this will lead to inflation is moot - this proposal will only take effect when inflation is explicitly desired. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/08/fight-recession.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/08/fight-recession.asp
toomuchtodo 7y ago
> There are three ways to make it possible: 1) issue government debt to pay for it 2) increase taxes to cover it 3) print money to cover it. There is another way to do it without issuing debt, but while still controlling monetary policy. 1. Provision "dividend.federalreserve.gov" CRUD app (or just dividend.gov for convenience). Create "Fed" accounts, very similar to what you get with a Social Security Administration account at https://ssa.gov https://ssa.gov. Accept routing and account numbers from citizens. Issue debit cards with no fees to the unbanked. Provide local service at Social Security offices. 2. The Fed slowly buys up income producing assets (equities, fixed income, etc), and distributes the gains monthly to everyone. Many central banks go on buying binges to support asset prices already (the Bank of Japan already owns a significant amount of the Nikkei [1]). You will eventually arrive at a UBI supported by the economic productivity of your country. Alaska does something smaller with oil revenue already [2]. This also keeps with Fed mandates to maximize employment and keep inflation around their 2% target (inflation will never increase because of structural demographics, the shift to a service economy, the transition to EVs and renewables, etc). [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bank-of-Japan-to-be-top-shareholder-of-Japan-stocks https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bank-of-Japan-to-be... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

> Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot. So, refresh my memory: Was Reagan talking about this? Ford? (People attempted to shoot him twice, but not hit.) Kennedy? For that matter, has a president ever seriously proposed this? You sound like you're just making stuff up.

banads 7y ago
Dr. King was talking about this shortly before he was shot.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  True, but he wasn't president, nor running for it.

magduf 7y ago

It sure would be ironic if the Trump Administration is the one that gets credit in the history books for passing the first large-scale UBI.

magduf 7y ago

>Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot. What are you talking about? Unless I'm forgetting someone, there have only been 2 assassinations, and one attempted one that famously failed. Lincoln was assassinated by someone who was mad about the Civil War. Reagan was shot by Sirhan Sirhan, but I doubt that's what you're talking about. Kennedy might be what you're talking about, but there's a lot of theories about what might have motivated that if you believe that it was orchestrated by someone and not the sole work of Oswald, with the biggest one I think being that Kennedy was planning to pull out of Vietnam. Anyway, even if your claim has merit, that's only a single data point.

xyzzyz 7y ago
You're forgetting half of assassinated presidents. Nobody cares about President Garfield and President McKinley, it seems.