4 ms·

Lives and money are not the same thing. Hard stop. I understand your point, but I just disagree with the expected outcomes here. Realistically how much would i

by sb8244 7y ago

Lives and money are not the same thing. Hard stop. I understand your point, but I just disagree with the expected outcomes here. Realistically how much would it cost to bail out these businesses and provide a safety net to people? I imagine the numbers are less than we'd first think. It's a choice. It's not inevitable.

icelancer 7y ago
Death rate is highly correlated with unemployment. They are not NOT the same thing. https://news.yale.edu/2002/05/23/rising-unemployment-causes-higher-death-rates-new-study-yale-researcher-shows https://news.yale.edu/2002/05/23/rising-unemployment-causes-...
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Why do you expect long term unemployment here? Unless the virus crisis lasts for a year, in a few months things will be back to normal hopefully and you can expect the economic activity to take off again.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    ... If small businesses are not economically relieved, there will be significant - and permanent - damage to those sectors.
- sb8244 7y ago
  This is either a straw man argument, or I disagree that there should be long term unemployment here. Govt programs and laws will probably be needed to provide that safety net. I'm not saying that death rate and unemployment are unrelated (equating lives and money together). I am saying that we should prioritize lives first, and figure out the money once we stop the damage.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    >> I am saying that we should prioritize lives first, and figure out the money once we stop the damage. False dichotomy. There are plenty of economists and accountants and others who can work on the economic relief package and do so in a meaningful way while scientists and medical teams (plus politicians) handle the lifesaving operations. There is no reason they cannot run in parallel.
    - sb8244 7y ago
      Uhhhhh ok. I'm not really sure why you think I said they can't run in parallel? What I am saying is that you can't prioritize money over lives and actively do things to harm the life of others. This whole comment is about the approach to covid-19 where life goes on as normal and you don't practice social distancing at all. One argument for people that do that is that they can't take off work because their businesses are open and will fire them. I believe the businesses should be forced into social distancing and provided financial help if unable to do that. We're actively going to see this happen in the next week—it started tonight—will it be late?
abtinf 7y ago
Who will provide the safety net when the entire economy is shut down? Production precedes consumption, always.
- sb8244 7y ago
  Those are the questions we need to figure out as a country or even as a world. Realistically, the govt needs to provide that safety net for its citizens. However, let's start with the decision that lives are more important than money.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Where does that safety net come from if there is no economic activity to tax?
    - sb8244 7y ago
      There is economic activity still going on. A complete economic collapse is different than what I'd expect to see. A relevant question is "how much would this cost?", to which I have no clue. If we're talking billions of dollars, that's essentially a write-off amount at the federal level.
- fsh 7y ago
  This is a straw man argument. Nobody proposes shutting down essential parts of the economy, such as food production or basic infrastructure. I think we are going to survive just fine without new iPhones or SV startups for a few weeks.
DickingAround 7y ago
People work their whole lives to make the value we measure in dollars. We humans have been dying for millenia for lack of the material wealth we have now. Having materials/dollars/whatever you want to call it is clearly worth lives because people spend vast portions of their precious lives getting it. If anything, valuing 1 more year of working life at 80 over ten years over 10years of working in your 20s would be silly.
- sb8244 7y ago
  I'm not saying that people don't need material wealth to survive in our society. I think that wealth can come from somewhere other than packing a petri dish bar with patrons who want to drink. For example, we're realistically looking at govt intervention at some point. It starts with a concerted decision that lives are more important than money. If we can't get onboard with that, then there will always be people that put their well-being over others.

by sb8244 7y ago

icelancer 7y ago

Death rate is highly correlated with unemployment. They are not NOT the same thing. https://news.yale.edu/2002/05/23/rising-unemployment-causes-higher-death-rates-new-study-yale-researcher-shows https://news.yale.edu/2002/05/23/rising-unemployment-causes-...

ekianjo 7y ago
Why do you expect long term unemployment here? Unless the virus crisis lasts for a year, in a few months things will be back to normal hopefully and you can expect the economic activity to take off again.
- icelancer 7y ago
  ... If small businesses are not economically relieved, there will be significant - and permanent - damage to those sectors.
sb8244 7y ago
This is either a straw man argument, or I disagree that there should be long term unemployment here. Govt programs and laws will probably be needed to provide that safety net. I'm not saying that death rate and unemployment are unrelated (equating lives and money together). I am saying that we should prioritize lives first, and figure out the money once we stop the damage.
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> I am saying that we should prioritize lives first, and figure out the money once we stop the damage. False dichotomy. There are plenty of economists and accountants and others who can work on the economic relief package and do so in a meaningful way while scientists and medical teams (plus politicians) handle the lifesaving operations. There is no reason they cannot run in parallel.
  - sb8244 7y ago
    Uhhhhh ok. I'm not really sure why you think I said they can't run in parallel? What I am saying is that you can't prioritize money over lives and actively do things to harm the life of others. This whole comment is about the approach to covid-19 where life goes on as normal and you don't practice social distancing at all. One argument for people that do that is that they can't take off work because their businesses are open and will fire them. I believe the businesses should be forced into social distancing and provided financial help if unable to do that. We're actively going to see this happen in the next week—it started tonight—will it be late?

abtinf 7y ago

Who will provide the safety net when the entire economy is shut down? Production precedes consumption, always.

sb8244 7y ago
Those are the questions we need to figure out as a country or even as a world. Realistically, the govt needs to provide that safety net for its citizens. However, let's start with the decision that lives are more important than money.
- briandear 7y ago
  Where does that safety net come from if there is no economic activity to tax?
  - sb8244 7y ago
    There is economic activity still going on. A complete economic collapse is different than what I'd expect to see. A relevant question is "how much would this cost?", to which I have no clue. If we're talking billions of dollars, that's essentially a write-off amount at the federal level.
fsh 7y ago
This is a straw man argument. Nobody proposes shutting down essential parts of the economy, such as food production or basic infrastructure. I think we are going to survive just fine without new iPhones or SV startups for a few weeks.

DickingAround 7y ago

People work their whole lives to make the value we measure in dollars. We humans have been dying for millenia for lack of the material wealth we have now. Having materials/dollars/whatever you want to call it is clearly worth lives because people spend vast portions of their precious lives getting it. If anything, valuing 1 more year of working life at 80 over ten years over 10years of working in your 20s would be silly.

sb8244 7y ago
I'm not saying that people don't need material wealth to survive in our society. I think that wealth can come from somewhere other than packing a petri dish bar with patrons who want to drink. For example, we're realistically looking at govt intervention at some point. It starts with a concerted decision that lives are more important than money. If we can't get onboard with that, then there will always be people that put their well-being over others.