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Chernobyl was one of the key events that led to Perestroika and Glasnost, which itself led to the collapse of the Soviet Union (alongside the economic hardships

Chernobyl was one of the key events that led to Perestroika and Glasnost, which itself led to the collapse of the Soviet Union (alongside the economic hardships brought on partly by an inability to compete with NATO/US military budgets and the flaws of the Soviet command economy and millions of small or minuscule issues). I imagine the CCP is aware of the similarities, and so we will see a further clamping down and maybe even a purge of "disloyal" party members/scapegoats.

scilro 7y ago
But this is kind of the opposite of Chernobyl, right? As you laid out, Chernobyl revealed the weakness of the Soviet Union and played some part in its collapse. COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. The entire world saw how quickly and drastically China acted and how slowly the US is acting. And now they're sending masks and respirators to the rest of the developing world.
- ajmurmann 7y ago
  That's only half of what happened though. Initially China was pretending nothing was happening and arresting researchers who talked about it. If their initial response had been open, the more extreme measures (that worked really well) might not have been necessary.
- duxup 7y ago
  Depends on how the locals feel, if they feel saved, or if they feel oppressed.
- simonh 7y ago
  The Chinese government utterly and completely dropped the ball for the first two whole months of the crisis. They censored and punished doctors trying to raise awareness, and suppressed news of the outbreak allowing mass gatherings to go ahead for political reasons. After that the severe crackdown came after the virus had been spread internationally, and has precipitated a humanitarian crisis which, again, they are covering up and suppressing. The Chinese people have been fantastic. They've put up with appalling hardships and suffered greatly for the incompetence and heavy handed ness of their leaders.
  - fragmede 7y ago
    The Chinese government didn't just drop the ball. They actively stole the ball, stabbed it with a knife, and stuffed it down their pants. When asked where the ball went, they very angrily yelled "it wasn't me!" The culture the government promotes results in mid-level party members to total cowards who are so afraid of looking bad, that they hid evidence that anything might possibly be wrong. WHICH LEAD TO BIGGER PROBLEMS. The word to describe the situation is "dysfunctional". Which our healthcare system is, also.
- BoiledCabbage 7y ago
  If this same outbreak had started somewhere other than under the CCP there is a good chance it would've been squashed within the first month or so. China's continued attemps to put a good face on things rather than admit the disaster that was happening is what caused this to be such a large issue. It's essentially saying: China is so great for pulling out a knife so quickly. Yes the same knife that they stabbed with just before. You don't get credit for fixing a problem that your ineptitude and philosophy made significantly worse.
- baryphonic 7y ago
  The first cases of what we now call COVID-19 were identified at the end of November 2019. By mid-December, medical professionals in Wuhan were aware of the virus. The government did not begin the massive lockdowns till mid-January. This was partly a result of the regional party's incompetence (as is mentioned in the article), and partly a result of pressure from Beijing to ensure that lunar new year celebrations went on without a hitch. (My personal mental model for China is that the state wishes to portray the country as Disney World while actually running it like an ultra-dysfunctional Jurassic Park.) Dr Li Wenliang was even harassed by police and made to sign a confession for "disrupting the peace" by daring to tell the truth about the illness on the Internet; for his trouble, he himself succumbed to the disease. The mass mobilization was a show meant to distract the Chinese people and the world from the fact that this crisis was actively covered up and allowed to fester for 40 days for purely political reasons. So, no, I don't think this proves anything about the "superiority" of the Chinese model. South Korea has a very different model, and they have had a much better response. Even the US response hasn't been too bad. And the US and other countries have been actively harmed by the Chinese cover-ups and censorship of information, along with the concomitant spread of disinformation. I place the blame for this becoming a pandemic firmly at the hands of the Chinese Communist government at every layer.
- foogazi 7y ago
  > COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. Uh what? Define quick - They could have shit it down in December and spared the whole world
- bassman9000 7y ago
  Yeah, not that way. That's not quick https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19... hiding info https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/china-still-not-sharing-coronavirus-information-experts-say https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/... not like they had a chance when forced to quarantine at gun point https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1239100397597253633 https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1239100397597253633 and silenced if dared to criticize https://twitter.com/nathanlawkc/status/1239184465961811970?s=19 https://twitter.com/nathanlawkc/status/1239184465961811970?s... Is silencing doctors, not sharing info with the global community for weeks, if not months, forcing their people at gun point, sealing their houses, and then attempting to blame the US a superior model? I fail to see how. Soviet model 100%.
- Bayart 7y ago
  >COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. If that's what people actually think, all that demonstrates is China terrifying power at spinning information in its favour.
enitihas 7y ago
But China is not communist and doesn't have a command economy. My high school book had a very good cartoon comparing Chinese old and new communism: 1. Mao's red communist handkerchief 2. Hu Jintao (previous president of China)'s capitalistic red tie. Not to mention China doesn't spend anywhere near their % of GDP compared to the Soviet Union.
- tomohawk 7y ago
  Isn't that a 'red' herring? The CCP is solidly in command of China, and no other parties are allowed.
  - danaris 7y ago
    That's authoritarianism, not communism. They can call themselves a "communist" party all they want; it doesn't make it true any more than the "Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea" is actually democratic.
    - baryphonic 7y ago
      I seem to recall in the Marxist-Leninist schema that the contradictions of capitalism lead the workers to seize power through violent revolution and create a "dictatorship of the proletariat" that brings about socialism. Socialism itself is supposed to also collapse under its own contradictions and being about communism, a sort of anarcho-syndicalist utopia. So, in a sense, you're right that "communist" is a misnomer (at least under the Marxist-Leninist scheme, which is clearly what the CCP is trying to emulate). However, it's hard to imagine a more apt description for the CCP and other far-left Marxist parties worldwide than "dictatorship of the proletariat."
      - enitihas 7y ago
        What proletariat? High level CCP officials are very rich. Example :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Jiabao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Jiabao (previous Prime Minister of China) There is no dictatorship of the proletariat. It is a dictatorship of the CCP. The CCP is not trying to emulate anything resembling Marxist-Leninist, or atleast there is no evidence for anything such. Here is a fun article connecting the CCP and communism (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-xi-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-...)
duxup 7y ago
They have already been testing the waters with theories in Chinese media that the virus is a US biological weapon. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-ch... That kind of deflection is pretty common sadly for folks who have no interest in the truth: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronaviru...

scilro 7y ago

But this is kind of the opposite of Chernobyl, right? As you laid out, Chernobyl revealed the weakness of the Soviet Union and played some part in its collapse. COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. The entire world saw how quickly and drastically China acted and how slowly the US is acting. And now they're sending masks and respirators to the rest of the developing world.

ajmurmann 7y ago
That's only half of what happened though. Initially China was pretending nothing was happening and arresting researchers who talked about it. If their initial response had been open, the more extreme measures (that worked really well) might not have been necessary.
duxup 7y ago
Depends on how the locals feel, if they feel saved, or if they feel oppressed.
simonh 7y ago
The Chinese government utterly and completely dropped the ball for the first two whole months of the crisis. They censored and punished doctors trying to raise awareness, and suppressed news of the outbreak allowing mass gatherings to go ahead for political reasons. After that the severe crackdown came after the virus had been spread internationally, and has precipitated a humanitarian crisis which, again, they are covering up and suppressing. The Chinese people have been fantastic. They've put up with appalling hardships and suffered greatly for the incompetence and heavy handed ness of their leaders.
- fragmede 7y ago
  The Chinese government didn't just drop the ball. They actively stole the ball, stabbed it with a knife, and stuffed it down their pants. When asked where the ball went, they very angrily yelled "it wasn't me!" The culture the government promotes results in mid-level party members to total cowards who are so afraid of looking bad, that they hid evidence that anything might possibly be wrong. WHICH LEAD TO BIGGER PROBLEMS. The word to describe the situation is "dysfunctional". Which our healthcare system is, also.
BoiledCabbage 7y ago
If this same outbreak had started somewhere other than under the CCP there is a good chance it would've been squashed within the first month or so. China's continued attemps to put a good face on things rather than admit the disaster that was happening is what caused this to be such a large issue. It's essentially saying: China is so great for pulling out a knife so quickly. Yes the same knife that they stabbed with just before. You don't get credit for fixing a problem that your ineptitude and philosophy made significantly worse.
baryphonic 7y ago
The first cases of what we now call COVID-19 were identified at the end of November 2019. By mid-December, medical professionals in Wuhan were aware of the virus. The government did not begin the massive lockdowns till mid-January. This was partly a result of the regional party's incompetence (as is mentioned in the article), and partly a result of pressure from Beijing to ensure that lunar new year celebrations went on without a hitch. (My personal mental model for China is that the state wishes to portray the country as Disney World while actually running it like an ultra-dysfunctional Jurassic Park.) Dr Li Wenliang was even harassed by police and made to sign a confession for "disrupting the peace" by daring to tell the truth about the illness on the Internet; for his trouble, he himself succumbed to the disease. The mass mobilization was a show meant to distract the Chinese people and the world from the fact that this crisis was actively covered up and allowed to fester for 40 days for purely political reasons. So, no, I don't think this proves anything about the "superiority" of the Chinese model. South Korea has a very different model, and they have had a much better response. Even the US response hasn't been too bad. And the US and other countries have been actively harmed by the Chinese cover-ups and censorship of information, along with the concomitant spread of disinformation. I place the blame for this becoming a pandemic firmly at the hands of the Chinese Communist government at every layer.
foogazi 7y ago
> COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. Uh what? Define quick - They could have shit it down in December and spared the whole world
bassman9000 7y ago
Yeah, not that way. That's not quick https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19... hiding info https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/china-still-not-sharing-coronavirus-information-experts-say https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/... not like they had a chance when forced to quarantine at gun point https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1239100397597253633 https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1239100397597253633 and silenced if dared to criticize https://twitter.com/nathanlawkc/status/1239184465961811970?s=19 https://twitter.com/nathanlawkc/status/1239184465961811970?s... Is silencing doctors, not sharing info with the global community for weeks, if not months, forcing their people at gun point, sealing their houses, and then attempting to blame the US a superior model? I fail to see how. Soviet model 100%.
Bayart 7y ago
>COVID19 has laid bare the superiority of the Chinese model in terms of quick mass mobilization. If that's what people actually think, all that demonstrates is China terrifying power at spinning information in its favour.

enitihas 7y ago

But China is not communist and doesn't have a command economy. My high school book had a very good cartoon comparing Chinese old and new communism: 1. Mao's red communist handkerchief 2. Hu Jintao (previous president of China)'s capitalistic red tie. Not to mention China doesn't spend anywhere near their % of GDP compared to the Soviet Union.

tomohawk 7y ago
Isn't that a 'red' herring? The CCP is solidly in command of China, and no other parties are allowed.
- danaris 7y ago
  That's authoritarianism, not communism. They can call themselves a "communist" party all they want; it doesn't make it true any more than the "Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea" is actually democratic.
  - baryphonic 7y ago
    I seem to recall in the Marxist-Leninist schema that the contradictions of capitalism lead the workers to seize power through violent revolution and create a "dictatorship of the proletariat" that brings about socialism. Socialism itself is supposed to also collapse under its own contradictions and being about communism, a sort of anarcho-syndicalist utopia. So, in a sense, you're right that "communist" is a misnomer (at least under the Marxist-Leninist scheme, which is clearly what the CCP is trying to emulate). However, it's hard to imagine a more apt description for the CCP and other far-left Marxist parties worldwide than "dictatorship of the proletariat."
    - enitihas 7y ago
      What proletariat? High level CCP officials are very rich. Example :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Jiabao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Jiabao (previous Prime Minister of China) There is no dictatorship of the proletariat. It is a dictatorship of the CCP. The CCP is not trying to emulate anything resembling Marxist-Leninist, or atleast there is no evidence for anything such. Here is a fun article connecting the CCP and communism (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-xi-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-...)

duxup 7y ago

They have already been testing the waters with theories in Chinese media that the virus is a US biological weapon. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-ch... That kind of deflection is pretty common sadly for folks who have no interest in the truth: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronaviru...