4 ms·

Also interesting: > Originators of nearly half the list--pascal, struct, parts, eqn--were women, well beyond women's demographic share of computer science.

indigochill 7y ago
In the 40s, computing was seen as primarily women's work (similar to the stereotype of switchboard operators). Into the 60s, women still comprised up to half of the computing workforce. In 84, they peaked at 37%. So demographically speaking, the ratio was not as bad as it is today. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing)
- mhd 7y ago
  "Workforce" can be a bit misleading though. If you look at Mad Men, the women were the majority of the ad agency workforce -- in the secretary pool. An interesting statistic would be the gender ratio for people who published papers.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  In the 40s, I don't think computing was a thing like you're implying, kind of like nuclear reactors were a very very tiny area. The explosion of computer usage and programming was more like the late 50s, when Fortran came out. Even then, I don't think people even thought in terms of a "computing workforce". Nobody majored in computers, a programmer might be a math major or might not. Male engineers had female assistants that were more than typists, but not the same as a Google SWE today either. Nor the same personalities. My source is my own family history and it makes me annoyed at the anachronistic assumptions and framework that people shoehorn historical tidbits into when discussing this topic. By the way, how can you have 50% in the 60s and then a peak at 37% later?
  - morelisp 7y ago
    50% is the workforce; 37% is for formal CS graduates. Most histories show unequal access to computing at home was a major factor discouraging woman, versus when any computing experience was on-the-job experience.
- nonesuchluck 7y ago
  I feel like the line between computer user/operator and computer programmer used to be fuzzier. I've always wanted to better understand how and where that distinction has shifted over time. To this day, IBM calls mainframe operators, "systems programmers." I suspect that shifting narrative may tell a chapter of the story of how women were gradually pushed out of our industry.
  - chrisfinazzo 7y ago
    Talking to my parents, there was definitely a hierarchy between the two. Although the programmers might have looked down on the operators as grunts, these people were in the privileged position of actually getting to interact with the machine directly, which is something. You're pretty much right on re their exodus. Thompson's book, which I mentioned in my earlier comment, has a chapter called 'The ENIAC Girls Vanish'.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Into the 60s, women still comprised up to half of the computing workforce. My life experience corroborates this. When I was in school, girls were taught to type, and boys weren't. Because of that, many of the girls from my school went into computing, while the boys went to more "manly" pursuits. It's also why Catholic nuns were over-represented in early computing.
  - ruricolist 7y ago
    "It's also why Catholic nuns were over-represented in early computing." Would you mind expanding on that?
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Highly educated, and able to type. The first woman to earn a PhD in Computer Science was a nun in Ohio. Catholic nuns have done much for the business world that is overlooked. From memory, so no citations: The first female CEOs were Catholic nuns — in the early 1900's, a time when women in the American workplace was uncommon, Catholic nuns founded over 800 hospitals in the United States. They also ran schools, colleges, and universities. The concept of just-in-time delivery was invented by nuns running those hospitals. The first health insurance company was founded in Missouri by nuns to care for railroad workers. There are others. I once ran across a list of them on the intarwebs, but these are the ones that stuck with me.
      - yesenadam 7y ago
        Fascinating, thanks. This all makes Sister Celine's contribution less surprising. I came across her in the classic A=B "about identities in general, and hypergeometric identities in particular, with emphasis on computer methods of discovery and proof." An amazing and wonderfully-written book. https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SisterCelinesMethod.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SisterCelinesMethod.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Celine_Fasenmyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Celine_Fasenmyer
- chrisfinazzo 7y ago
  Clive Thompson's book "Coders" goes into this demographic shift in considerable depth - currently reading, would highly recommend. At least in those days, if you were reasonably smart and detail oriented, it was possible to find a way in. Dad - a history major turned COBOL programmer and later, project manager - found his way into his prior company (and then stayed for 32 years) by this route. He met Mom there too - also not uncommon for the time - who was a math major who decided that teaching wasn't the right fit for her.
- samatman 7y ago
  In the 40s, most computers were women. This sounds really weird to modern ears but it's literally true. Computer was a job before it was a machine.
saati 7y ago
Wirth is a man so who is he talking about wrt pascal?
- atq2119 7y ago
  I'd suggest you go and actually read the article -- it's not about Pascal the language, but about a specific implementation of it.
  - saati 7y ago
    I actually did, it did not answer my question, that's why I asked here.
    - kps 7y ago
      > pascal > > The syntax diagnostics from the compiler made by Sue Graham's group at > Berkeley were the mmost helpful I have ever seen--and they were generated > automatically. At a syntax error the compiler would suggest a token that > could be inserted that would allow parsing to proceed further. No attempt > was made to explain what was wrong. The compiler taught me Pascal in > an evening, with no manual at hand.
      - TheDesolate0 7y ago
        I'm scrapping off some old brain cells here but I believe it's before the language (Pascal) and it was like a linter, but more like rustc's behavior.
kristianp 7y ago
I'd be interested to see an example of how the pascal error messages worked.

indigochill 7y ago

In the 40s, computing was seen as primarily women's work (similar to the stereotype of switchboard operators). Into the 60s, women still comprised up to half of the computing workforce. In 84, they peaked at 37%. So demographically speaking, the ratio was not as bad as it is today. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing)

mhd 7y ago
"Workforce" can be a bit misleading though. If you look at Mad Men, the women were the majority of the ad agency workforce -- in the secretary pool. An interesting statistic would be the gender ratio for people who published papers.
perl4ever 7y ago
In the 40s, I don't think computing was a thing like you're implying, kind of like nuclear reactors were a very very tiny area. The explosion of computer usage and programming was more like the late 50s, when Fortran came out. Even then, I don't think people even thought in terms of a "computing workforce". Nobody majored in computers, a programmer might be a math major or might not. Male engineers had female assistants that were more than typists, but not the same as a Google SWE today either. Nor the same personalities. My source is my own family history and it makes me annoyed at the anachronistic assumptions and framework that people shoehorn historical tidbits into when discussing this topic. By the way, how can you have 50% in the 60s and then a peak at 37% later?
- morelisp 7y ago
  50% is the workforce; 37% is for formal CS graduates. Most histories show unequal access to computing at home was a major factor discouraging woman, versus when any computing experience was on-the-job experience.
nonesuchluck 7y ago
I feel like the line between computer user/operator and computer programmer used to be fuzzier. I've always wanted to better understand how and where that distinction has shifted over time. To this day, IBM calls mainframe operators, "systems programmers." I suspect that shifting narrative may tell a chapter of the story of how women were gradually pushed out of our industry.
- chrisfinazzo 7y ago
  Talking to my parents, there was definitely a hierarchy between the two. Although the programmers might have looked down on the operators as grunts, these people were in the privileged position of actually getting to interact with the machine directly, which is something. You're pretty much right on re their exodus. Thompson's book, which I mentioned in my earlier comment, has a chapter called 'The ENIAC Girls Vanish'.
reaperducer 7y ago
Into the 60s, women still comprised up to half of the computing workforce. My life experience corroborates this. When I was in school, girls were taught to type, and boys weren't. Because of that, many of the girls from my school went into computing, while the boys went to more "manly" pursuits. It's also why Catholic nuns were over-represented in early computing.
- ruricolist 7y ago
  "It's also why Catholic nuns were over-represented in early computing." Would you mind expanding on that?
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Highly educated, and able to type. The first woman to earn a PhD in Computer Science was a nun in Ohio. Catholic nuns have done much for the business world that is overlooked. From memory, so no citations: The first female CEOs were Catholic nuns — in the early 1900's, a time when women in the American workplace was uncommon, Catholic nuns founded over 800 hospitals in the United States. They also ran schools, colleges, and universities. The concept of just-in-time delivery was invented by nuns running those hospitals. The first health insurance company was founded in Missouri by nuns to care for railroad workers. There are others. I once ran across a list of them on the intarwebs, but these are the ones that stuck with me.
    - yesenadam 7y ago
      Fascinating, thanks. This all makes Sister Celine's contribution less surprising. I came across her in the classic A=B "about identities in general, and hypergeometric identities in particular, with emphasis on computer methods of discovery and proof." An amazing and wonderfully-written book. https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SisterCelinesMethod.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SisterCelinesMethod.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Celine_Fasenmyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Celine_Fasenmyer
chrisfinazzo 7y ago
Clive Thompson's book "Coders" goes into this demographic shift in considerable depth - currently reading, would highly recommend. At least in those days, if you were reasonably smart and detail oriented, it was possible to find a way in. Dad - a history major turned COBOL programmer and later, project manager - found his way into his prior company (and then stayed for 32 years) by this route. He met Mom there too - also not uncommon for the time - who was a math major who decided that teaching wasn't the right fit for her.
samatman 7y ago
In the 40s, most computers were women. This sounds really weird to modern ears but it's literally true. Computer was a job before it was a machine.

saati 7y ago

Wirth is a man so who is he talking about wrt pascal?

atq2119 7y ago
I'd suggest you go and actually read the article -- it's not about Pascal the language, but about a specific implementation of it.
- saati 7y ago
  I actually did, it did not answer my question, that's why I asked here.
  - kps 7y ago
    > pascal > > The syntax diagnostics from the compiler made by Sue Graham's group at > Berkeley were the mmost helpful I have ever seen--and they were generated > automatically. At a syntax error the compiler would suggest a token that > could be inserted that would allow parsing to proceed further. No attempt > was made to explain what was wrong. The compiler taught me Pascal in > an evening, with no manual at hand.
    - TheDesolate0 7y ago
      I'm scrapping off some old brain cells here but I believe it's before the language (Pascal) and it was like a linter, but more like rustc's behavior.

kristianp 7y ago

I'd be interested to see an example of how the pascal error messages worked.