4 ms·

Whishing people would realize it is also much more sustainable.

by jsilence 7y ago

chrisseaton 7y ago
Even if you have to rebuild every 50 years or so? A brick structure will last thousands of years.
- russellbeattie 7y ago
  I grew up in a New England school house that was over 200 years old when I was there 40 years ago. Wood buildings last for generations with basic maintenance. I'd much rather live in one than a concrete slab.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Do you realise there are other building materials beside concrete and wood?
  - loeg 7y ago
    New England houses that have survived 150+ years are the exception to this rule. They're extremely overbuilt compared to today's wood-frame construction and you get some survivorship bias effect (the ones that didn't make it have been replaced). They're also mostly not on fault lines, and the climate may or may not be beneficial to the longevity.
- atoav 7y ago
  The Vindlausloftet in southern norway is a wooden cabin built in 1170 — granted, this is a massive wood construction and not a wood frame construction. My feeling when I went to the US was that many houses felt incredibly "flimsy" as if you could just punch your fist through the wall.
  - loeg 7y ago
    You can easily put your fist through drywall. That's just the decorative coating on the inside. The framing is treated 2x4, mostly, and good luck putting your fist through that.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      You don't need to put your first through the 2x4, because they're only every half-metre or so - you can walk between them if you've knocked out the drywall.
      - clairity 7y ago
        yes, in the US, 16"-on-center is the standard for stud spacing (12"-on-center used to be used too but not so much anymore). one of the interesting tidbits about passivhaus construction is that it tries to minimize even more the wood content of a building (in favor of insulation), so studs can even go to 24" apart.
- AngryData 7y ago
  If it is even half-ass maintained a wooden house will survive far longer than that. If your roof isn't leaking and your siding is either painted or not wood, there is very little that will do actual structural damage to the house. Dry wood can last hundreds of years if it has any sort of protection from the sun and rain. Also, wood houses can be built to much higher quality than what people are building new to sell on the open market. Square footage has a much higher profit margin than thicker and more insulating walls or better wood or more careful and accurate framing. Even putting in something highly visibly like way better windows and doors isn't going to get you jack shit of a return if you are building to sell rather than ever paying for heating and cooling costs or what not.
  - crispyambulance 7y ago
    > If it is even half-ass maintained a wooden house will survive far longer than that. I mostly agree with the other points you make but not this. Modern wood-frame and plywood construction with vapor barriers, Air-conditioning and impermeable facades are very sensitive to moisture. Once water enters, it has nowhere to go and this has to be addressed quickly and thoroughly or else there's a serious and relatively quick structural deterioration, mold issues and a downward-spiral of problems. Mcmansion owners who want to keep their house in excellent condition better be on top of this stuff, or else they or the suckahs they sell to are going to be paying a hefty price. Avoiding this requires decidedly more than half-assed maintenance.
    - loeg 7y ago
      Any suggestions for preventive maintanence / monitoring? Do you put moisture sensors in the walls? Low-power dehumidifiers on infrequent cycle?
      - crispyambulance 7y ago
        I think it's enough to stay on top of what's going on in the house and deal with problems as they appear or even before. Old drafty houses are a bit more resilient because they can dry out relatively quickly. New houses with stuff like OSB (chipboard) will just soak up moisture and "tell you" in a variety of ways that something is wrong. Like mold. If it appears, you got a moisture source that needs to be discovered and dealt with. Crawlspaces need to be encapsulated and have negative pressure. It's amazing how simple stuff like water leaking from a gutter can find it's way into a house with even the smallest gap at a window interface or if the drainage is bad where the house meets the ground.
- comicjk 7y ago
  This is an underestimate - I'm reading your comment from a 170-year-old wooden house.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > This is an underestimate No it isn't - if you ask the people actually building American wooden houses how long they think they'll last - they'll tell you almost what I did - just 60 years! Check national building standards 7543:1992. They increased it under pressure a few years ago, but that's what they were designing against until recently! Of course some houses will survive longer (and 170 is a pretty modest age to be boasting about) but even the people building them don't have confidence that they will.
  - crispyambulance 7y ago
    > I'm reading your comment from a 170-year-old wooden house. That's great, but that wooden house you live in is vastly better in terms of quality of wood than what is common today in USA construction. If OSB had existed 170 years ago, I assure you would have long ago turned to dust by today. You probably have magnificent wood beams and single-piece shipboards spanning all studs and joists. It all comes down to material-quality, maintenance, design, expectations and weather. Sadly, all of those factors take a back seat to cost and speed where modern housing developers are concerned. Modern building techniques make it easy to fool unsavvy consumers into an illusion of durability and quality.
- loeg 7y ago
  Not on a fault line it won't. Also vastly more labor intensive to build or redevelop as needs change.

Whishing people would realize it is also much more sustainable.

chrisseaton 7y ago

Even if you have to rebuild every 50 years or so? A brick structure will last thousands of years.

russellbeattie 7y ago
I grew up in a New England school house that was over 200 years old when I was there 40 years ago. Wood buildings last for generations with basic maintenance. I'd much rather live in one than a concrete slab.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Do you realise there are other building materials beside concrete and wood?
- loeg 7y ago
  New England houses that have survived 150+ years are the exception to this rule. They're extremely overbuilt compared to today's wood-frame construction and you get some survivorship bias effect (the ones that didn't make it have been replaced). They're also mostly not on fault lines, and the climate may or may not be beneficial to the longevity.
atoav 7y ago
The Vindlausloftet in southern norway is a wooden cabin built in 1170 — granted, this is a massive wood construction and not a wood frame construction. My feeling when I went to the US was that many houses felt incredibly "flimsy" as if you could just punch your fist through the wall.
- loeg 7y ago
  You can easily put your fist through drywall. That's just the decorative coating on the inside. The framing is treated 2x4, mostly, and good luck putting your fist through that.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    You don't need to put your first through the 2x4, because they're only every half-metre or so - you can walk between them if you've knocked out the drywall.
    - clairity 7y ago
      yes, in the US, 16"-on-center is the standard for stud spacing (12"-on-center used to be used too but not so much anymore). one of the interesting tidbits about passivhaus construction is that it tries to minimize even more the wood content of a building (in favor of insulation), so studs can even go to 24" apart.
AngryData 7y ago
If it is even half-ass maintained a wooden house will survive far longer than that. If your roof isn't leaking and your siding is either painted or not wood, there is very little that will do actual structural damage to the house. Dry wood can last hundreds of years if it has any sort of protection from the sun and rain. Also, wood houses can be built to much higher quality than what people are building new to sell on the open market. Square footage has a much higher profit margin than thicker and more insulating walls or better wood or more careful and accurate framing. Even putting in something highly visibly like way better windows and doors isn't going to get you jack shit of a return if you are building to sell rather than ever paying for heating and cooling costs or what not.
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  > If it is even half-ass maintained a wooden house will survive far longer than that. I mostly agree with the other points you make but not this. Modern wood-frame and plywood construction with vapor barriers, Air-conditioning and impermeable facades are very sensitive to moisture. Once water enters, it has nowhere to go and this has to be addressed quickly and thoroughly or else there's a serious and relatively quick structural deterioration, mold issues and a downward-spiral of problems. Mcmansion owners who want to keep their house in excellent condition better be on top of this stuff, or else they or the suckahs they sell to are going to be paying a hefty price. Avoiding this requires decidedly more than half-assed maintenance.
  - loeg 7y ago
    Any suggestions for preventive maintanence / monitoring? Do you put moisture sensors in the walls? Low-power dehumidifiers on infrequent cycle?
    - crispyambulance 7y ago
      I think it's enough to stay on top of what's going on in the house and deal with problems as they appear or even before. Old drafty houses are a bit more resilient because they can dry out relatively quickly. New houses with stuff like OSB (chipboard) will just soak up moisture and "tell you" in a variety of ways that something is wrong. Like mold. If it appears, you got a moisture source that needs to be discovered and dealt with. Crawlspaces need to be encapsulated and have negative pressure. It's amazing how simple stuff like water leaking from a gutter can find it's way into a house with even the smallest gap at a window interface or if the drainage is bad where the house meets the ground.
comicjk 7y ago
This is an underestimate - I'm reading your comment from a 170-year-old wooden house.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > This is an underestimate No it isn't - if you ask the people actually building American wooden houses how long they think they'll last - they'll tell you almost what I did - just 60 years! Check national building standards 7543:1992. They increased it under pressure a few years ago, but that's what they were designing against until recently! Of course some houses will survive longer (and 170 is a pretty modest age to be boasting about) but even the people building them don't have confidence that they will.
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  > I'm reading your comment from a 170-year-old wooden house. That's great, but that wooden house you live in is vastly better in terms of quality of wood than what is common today in USA construction. If OSB had existed 170 years ago, I assure you would have long ago turned to dust by today. You probably have magnificent wood beams and single-piece shipboards spanning all studs and joists. It all comes down to material-quality, maintenance, design, expectations and weather. Sadly, all of those factors take a back seat to cost and speed where modern housing developers are concerned. Modern building techniques make it easy to fool unsavvy consumers into an illusion of durability and quality.
loeg 7y ago
Not on a fault line it won't. Also vastly more labor intensive to build or redevelop as needs change.