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This kind of comment isn't helpful. Of course, there have been ways to copy large files around since there were networks. What's new in this protocol enhancemen

This kind of comment isn't helpful. Of course, there have been ways to copy large files around since there were networks. What's new in this protocol enhancement is that this works within the context of a Merkle tree-based technology (upon which all DVCS's are based). To use your analogy, yes this is a wheel but it's built with rubber instead of wood and iron.

vvanders 7y ago
I guess I should have expanded more. DVCS is in direct opposition of workflows that include binary files(yes I'm aware that git lfs has locking, it's also centrally orchestrated) because you can't merge almost every binary format. We were using P4 ~15 years ago for these workflows and rather than understanding what made them work people are just rediscovering the same problems that have already been solved. My guess is that we'll next see a solution that dynamically caches most downloaded files in a geographic friendly way, heck we may even call it "P4Proxy". I've seen so much FUD around how git is the "one true workflow" because other solutions "don't scale" when they don't understand the constraints that certain workflows impose. Git/DVCS is great for a lot of things but sometimes you should use the right tool for the job rather than hack something together. [Edit] These reasons are exactly why you see Unreal supporting P4/SVN out of the box[1] and no mention of git. [1] https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/UI/SourceControl/index.html https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/UI/SourceControl/...
- dagmx 7y ago
  I think this is a very p4 centric view of the world. Locking helps with preventing collisions, but honestly the issue is still always communication. Why are people even touching files they shouldn't be touching? Meanwhile perforce is a pain for code heavy projects and requiring a central perforce server. Git works great there. The issue is neither is a silver bullet for the others workflow and needs, and they both suck horribly for mixed code and binary asset workflows. That's not even considering cost. Meanwhile film studios generally prefer keeping the considerations separate and using symlinks or URI to their data store and that works really well. But that doesn't work great for remote workflows. So again, I think you're applying a very p4, game centric view to this. There are lots of different use cases and team structures that none of these version control systems are able to address in their entirety.
  - vvanders 7y ago
    If by P4 centric you also mean SVN as well then sure. I will say however that if you think locking is optional then you already don't understand these workflows and why they're so critical. Art/design/animation doesn't care that "they should not have been touching the file" they just care that they have to throw away two days of work because someone made multiple edits to the same package file. I've literally seen multiple teams almost come to blows when this happens. You can separate code from art/assets. That comes at an integration and iteration cost, it'll drive your designers mad. There are workflows out there where code is not the first class citizen, in those cases I've seen git shoehorned in and untold pain follows.
    - dagmx 7y ago
      I've worked as a pipeline supervisor at one of the biggest VFX studios. I very much understand these workflows. I've worked as an artist and a tech artist in perforce and SVN workflows too. I've had to support the workflows of a 1000+ workforce across multiple locations. I don't think attributing my disagreement with you to not understanding workflows is a fair characterization. I still think locking , while useful, is only mandatory for work cultures with poor communication. Otherwise, many companies get by with very large workforces who don't hit these issues without having locking. Separation of code and art assets also don't need to be painful. It's very doable but does require some amount of architectural consideration. And I very much acknowledge there are projects where code isn't the majority makeup, which is why I say that none of the VCS systems cover mixed projects well or cover all the needs of the others well.
      - vvanders 7y ago
        I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. It sounds like we just come from different development cultures. Your solution to lack of locking sounds like a top-down hierarchy that wouldn't be flexible enough to support the teams I've worked with. Having seen both approaches(and how they break down) I'll take a centralized locking solution over communication mistakes that lead to days of work being lost.

vvanders 7y ago

I guess I should have expanded more. DVCS is in direct opposition of workflows that include binary files(yes I'm aware that git lfs has locking, it's also centrally orchestrated) because you can't merge almost every binary format. We were using P4 ~15 years ago for these workflows and rather than understanding what made them work people are just rediscovering the same problems that have already been solved. My guess is that we'll next see a solution that dynamically caches most downloaded files in a geographic friendly way, heck we may even call it "P4Proxy". I've seen so much FUD around how git is the "one true workflow" because other solutions "don't scale" when they don't understand the constraints that certain workflows impose. Git/DVCS is great for a lot of things but sometimes you should use the right tool for the job rather than hack something together. [Edit] These reasons are exactly why you see Unreal supporting P4/SVN out of the box[1] and no mention of git. [1] https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/UI/SourceControl/index.html https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/UI/SourceControl/...

dagmx 7y ago
I think this is a very p4 centric view of the world. Locking helps with preventing collisions, but honestly the issue is still always communication. Why are people even touching files they shouldn't be touching? Meanwhile perforce is a pain for code heavy projects and requiring a central perforce server. Git works great there. The issue is neither is a silver bullet for the others workflow and needs, and they both suck horribly for mixed code and binary asset workflows. That's not even considering cost. Meanwhile film studios generally prefer keeping the considerations separate and using symlinks or URI to their data store and that works really well. But that doesn't work great for remote workflows. So again, I think you're applying a very p4, game centric view to this. There are lots of different use cases and team structures that none of these version control systems are able to address in their entirety.
- vvanders 7y ago
  If by P4 centric you also mean SVN as well then sure. I will say however that if you think locking is optional then you already don't understand these workflows and why they're so critical. Art/design/animation doesn't care that "they should not have been touching the file" they just care that they have to throw away two days of work because someone made multiple edits to the same package file. I've literally seen multiple teams almost come to blows when this happens. You can separate code from art/assets. That comes at an integration and iteration cost, it'll drive your designers mad. There are workflows out there where code is not the first class citizen, in those cases I've seen git shoehorned in and untold pain follows.
  - dagmx 7y ago
    I've worked as a pipeline supervisor at one of the biggest VFX studios. I very much understand these workflows. I've worked as an artist and a tech artist in perforce and SVN workflows too. I've had to support the workflows of a 1000+ workforce across multiple locations. I don't think attributing my disagreement with you to not understanding workflows is a fair characterization. I still think locking , while useful, is only mandatory for work cultures with poor communication. Otherwise, many companies get by with very large workforces who don't hit these issues without having locking. Separation of code and art assets also don't need to be painful. It's very doable but does require some amount of architectural consideration. And I very much acknowledge there are projects where code isn't the majority makeup, which is why I say that none of the VCS systems cover mixed projects well or cover all the needs of the others well.
    - vvanders 7y ago
      I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. It sounds like we just come from different development cultures. Your solution to lack of locking sounds like a top-down hierarchy that wouldn't be flexible enough to support the teams I've worked with. Having seen both approaches(and how they break down) I'll take a centralized locking solution over communication mistakes that lead to days of work being lost.