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You could, alternatively, convince them that they don't want that much toilet paper. For instance, convince them that stores will not run out of stock and that

by geofft 7y ago

You could, alternatively, convince them that they don't want that much toilet paper. For instance, convince them that stores will not run out of stock and that they will be able to go to stores. This is the normal state of the toilet paper market. The problem here is not that we've suddenly been possessed by demons who want infinite toilet paper, the problem is that people are making rational decisions based on actual facts on the ground changing. Some of those rational decisions are "I'm worried I won't be able to get what I need because I hear that stores are running out." Other rational decisions are "I think I can make a profit on this because of upcoming scarcity." ("Rational" is not a value judgment.) If you can prevent people from believing those "because" clauses, they'll stop demanding it. Also, price-gouging laws do not "stop the market from giving them what they want." If anything, price gouging does - if someone who has $100 in savings wants a year's worth of toilet paper, they're less able to successfully get it if the market can run unchecked. It's true that an unregulated free market is good at getting products sold at the best price for the sellers - that's very different from giving people what they want.

logicchains 7y ago
>Also, price-gouging laws do not "stop the market from giving them what they want." If anything, price gouging does - if someone who has $100 in savings wants a year's worth of toilet paper, they're less able to successfully get it if the market can run unchecked. It's true that an unregulated free market is good at getting products sold at the best price for the sellers - that's very different from giving people what they want. This is missing the original point: the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market. This means more product is produced, so that in the end more people have it than they would otherwise. Without that, whether the guy with $100 worth of toilet paper gets what he wants is just determined by how fast he is to get to the store.
- geofft 7y ago
  > the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market I really don't see evidence that it does. Remember that there are two steps here: production and retail sale. It certainly incentivizes price-gouging resellers to collect more of the product and incentivizes people to become resellers - see the various folks who are "hustling" by buying out their local Costco and reselling online for a markup. I haven't seen evidence that e.g. Charmin is saying, "Thanks to higher prices, we're able to see more toilet paper" or "We're limited in supply, we're going to have to raise prices." That was the original point. At the top of the thread you're replying to: > These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. If you disagree with that, please present evidence of decreases in production / insufficient production / etc. There's been plenty of evidence in this comment section about the existence of profiteers. (Perhaps the confusion here is whether price-gouging laws prevent your local corner store from selling more expensive toilet paper if their actual wholesale cost goes up? I would think they don't, and I would in fact agree that they should not and such a law would be a bad thing. It should prevent them from charging more markup, and either it should prevent them from buying from opportunistic intermediaries who are charging them more or it should apply to such intermediaries directly.)
  - stale2002 7y ago
    > haven't seen evidence that e.g. Charmin is saying, "Thanks to higher prices, we're able to see more toilet paper" Do you honestly believe that manufacturers are currently at 100% capacity, and have been at 100% capacity for years? That's ridiculous. Manufacturers always have spare capacity. One simple solution is that they can increase hours that the factory runs (ex, by giving overtime pay). Or they can delay upgrades/maintenance to keep things running longer, or any number of things. > If you disagree with that, please present evidence of decreases in production You are the one who is making the claim that manufacturers have somehow been in a perpetual state of 100% capacity. That is an insanely strong claim to make. The idea that it is impossibility for manufacturers to take any action at all to increase capacity is the actual claim that would require evidence. You are also ignoring things such as the amount of supply that manufacturers have stocked up. If demand temporarily increases, then they can sell that stocked up supply, that is in warehouses, until they increase capacity. The world is not running out of toilet paper. Instead, what we are seeing, is temporary, local shortages, at stores, until the next shipment comes in. Those stores will just increase the number of shipments.
    - geofft 7y ago
      I'm not claiming that manufacturers are at 100% capacity. I'm claiming (or more specifically, the person I quoted is claiming) that there isn't an underlying genuine shortage (i.e., that any inability to buy things in practice are caused by things other than "the product you want to buy literally hasn't been produced yet"), and so whether a manufacturer is at 100% capacity or 20%, they're still producing enough. That is, I think, the same claim you're making - that the world is not running out of toilet paper and all we have is local shortages. I'm also claiming that if a manufacturer is not at sufficient capacity to meet demand, the cause is something other than a need for the per-unit price to go up. Generally, as production increases, the cost of production per item goes down. I certainly agree that manufacturers can take plenty of actions to increase capacity - I do not agree that those actions necessarily require them to raise prices.
      - stale2002 7y ago
- creato 7y ago
  I highly doubt toilet paper manufacturers will add production capacity. In the long term, toilet paper consumption must be absurdly stable. If people are buying extra toilet paper today, they'll buy less toilet paper in the future (unless they start having toilet paper bonfires or something).
  - gwright 7y ago
    They won't if they can't sell it for higher price. But adding capacity could just mean running extra shifts or producing on the weekend. But that means higher costs (paying people to work on the weekend).
- jcranmer 7y ago
  > the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market. Ask yourself this question: if a TP manufacturer were to double their production effectively immediately, how long would it take for that extra product to reach the shelves? I don't know the answer specifically for toilet paper, but it's generally going to be in the region of a month or two for most consumer products. Price gouging isn't a signal to manufacturers to produce more; it's opportunistic middlemen profiting off of the inability of the supply chain to absorb a temporary shifting of demand.

by geofft 7y ago

logicchains 7y ago

>Also, price-gouging laws do not "stop the market from giving them what they want." If anything, price gouging does - if someone who has $100 in savings wants a year's worth of toilet paper, they're less able to successfully get it if the market can run unchecked. It's true that an unregulated free market is good at getting products sold at the best price for the sellers - that's very different from giving people what they want. This is missing the original point: the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market. This means more product is produced, so that in the end more people have it than they would otherwise. Without that, whether the guy with $100 worth of toilet paper gets what he wants is just determined by how fast he is to get to the store.

geofft 7y ago
> the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market I really don't see evidence that it does. Remember that there are two steps here: production and retail sale. It certainly incentivizes price-gouging resellers to collect more of the product and incentivizes people to become resellers - see the various folks who are "hustling" by buying out their local Costco and reselling online for a markup. I haven't seen evidence that e.g. Charmin is saying, "Thanks to higher prices, we're able to see more toilet paper" or "We're limited in supply, we're going to have to raise prices." That was the original point. At the top of the thread you're replying to: > These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. If you disagree with that, please present evidence of decreases in production / insufficient production / etc. There's been plenty of evidence in this comment section about the existence of profiteers. (Perhaps the confusion here is whether price-gouging laws prevent your local corner store from selling more expensive toilet paper if their actual wholesale cost goes up? I would think they don't, and I would in fact agree that they should not and such a law would be a bad thing. It should prevent them from charging more markup, and either it should prevent them from buying from opportunistic intermediaries who are charging them more or it should apply to such intermediaries directly.)
- stale2002 7y ago
  > haven't seen evidence that e.g. Charmin is saying, "Thanks to higher prices, we're able to see more toilet paper" Do you honestly believe that manufacturers are currently at 100% capacity, and have been at 100% capacity for years? That's ridiculous. Manufacturers always have spare capacity. One simple solution is that they can increase hours that the factory runs (ex, by giving overtime pay). Or they can delay upgrades/maintenance to keep things running longer, or any number of things. > If you disagree with that, please present evidence of decreases in production You are the one who is making the claim that manufacturers have somehow been in a perpetual state of 100% capacity. That is an insanely strong claim to make. The idea that it is impossibility for manufacturers to take any action at all to increase capacity is the actual claim that would require evidence. You are also ignoring things such as the amount of supply that manufacturers have stocked up. If demand temporarily increases, then they can sell that stocked up supply, that is in warehouses, until they increase capacity. The world is not running out of toilet paper. Instead, what we are seeing, is temporary, local shortages, at stores, until the next shipment comes in. Those stores will just increase the number of shipments.
  - geofft 7y ago
    I'm not claiming that manufacturers are at 100% capacity. I'm claiming (or more specifically, the person I quoted is claiming) that there isn't an underlying genuine shortage (i.e., that any inability to buy things in practice are caused by things other than "the product you want to buy literally hasn't been produced yet"), and so whether a manufacturer is at 100% capacity or 20%, they're still producing enough. That is, I think, the same claim you're making - that the world is not running out of toilet paper and all we have is local shortages. I'm also claiming that if a manufacturer is not at sufficient capacity to meet demand, the cause is something other than a need for the per-unit price to go up. Generally, as production increases, the cost of production per item goes down. I certainly agree that manufacturers can take plenty of actions to increase capacity - I do not agree that those actions necessarily require them to raise prices.
    - stale2002 7y ago
creato 7y ago
I highly doubt toilet paper manufacturers will add production capacity. In the long term, toilet paper consumption must be absurdly stable. If people are buying extra toilet paper today, they'll buy less toilet paper in the future (unless they start having toilet paper bonfires or something).
- gwright 7y ago
  They won't if they can't sell it for higher price. But adding capacity could just mean running extra shifts or producing on the weekend. But that means higher costs (paying people to work on the weekend).
jcranmer 7y ago
> the rise in price incentivises the market to produce more of the product / incentivises more producers to enter the market. Ask yourself this question: if a TP manufacturer were to double their production effectively immediately, how long would it take for that extra product to reach the shelves? I don't know the answer specifically for toilet paper, but it's generally going to be in the region of a month or two for most consumer products. Price gouging isn't a signal to manufacturers to produce more; it's opportunistic middlemen profiting off of the inability of the supply chain to absorb a temporary shifting of demand.