6 ms·

Or because biotech companies charge what insurance companies will bear for them?

by dnhz 7y ago

rumanator 7y ago
> Or because biotech companies charge what insurance companies will bear for them? Do you actually have any evidence that substantiates your claim? Wild speculations and conspiracy theories should not have a place in discussions regarding serious matters.
- 0x1221 7y ago
  Making a claim without providing evidence is different from "wild speculations and conspiracy theories".
  - rumanator 7y ago
    If there is no evidence to substantiate or support the claim then it falls deep in the wild speculation category. And the comment is quite literally a theory on how someone is conspiring.
    - forkexec 7y ago
      No, you're being intellectually dishonest.
      - rumanator 7y ago
        > No, you're being intellectually dishonest. Asking for evidence that supports a hefty claim was never, at any point in time or space, dishonesty. It's in fact the basis for the scientific method, and the basis for laws against libel and slander. Throwing personal attacks like yours, however, particularly while intentionally turning a blind eye to the lack of substance or support of a few claims based on a conspiracy theory, speaks volumes about you.
- jxf 7y ago
  That isn't speculation; it's just a factual statement about how capitalism and a free market works. Prices rise to the level people will bear.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- logicallee 7y ago
  Your tone is really weird. No conspiracy is required in the case of a single company setting prices on its patented medical discoveries. Since you're so critical of conspiracies, though, I'd (genuinely) love your take on something that does require a conspiracy: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-diabetes-insulin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-di... (For me the Google amp link brought up the full article. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-diabetes-insulin.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opin... ). Without a conspiracy, what keeps any drug company from selling cheap generic insulin in the United States? The reason I ask is that I really don't think so many companies can cooperate on price-fixing so I am looking for any other alternative explanation besides an illegal price-fixing conspiracy which I think would be very difficult to pull off among so many players and laws making it illegal. But the comment you replied to isn't like that and doesn't require a conspiracy.
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    You might be surprised: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspiracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspira... https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/worldbusiness/12cartel.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/worldbusiness/12... https://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/igamisugaya_170309_vitamincartels.pdf https://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/igamisugaya_1... That’s just a few, and just the ones they caught. It’s very hard to prosecute this case, and the incentive to collude is huge.
    - logicallee 7y ago
      Interesting links! Thank you.
- dnhz 7y ago
  See Humira [1]. Costs more than 5x more in the US than the UK. I’m not speculating on what a potential anti covid drug will cost; I’m talking about existing mAb therapies. And I didn’t think it a controversial point that drug companies charge as much as they can while their therapies are still protected by patents and, in the case of antibodies, manufacturing expertise. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab
dogma1138 7y ago
Monolocal antibodies require a complex and expensive process of cell cloning there are only a handful of labs capable of producing these and non of these can scale up production to anything close that is needed for a large scale epidemic not to mention a world wide pandemic. This is still cutting edge biotech used for experimental treatment for cancer and other diseases often getting an orphan drug or other exemption certification to go on the market. You also will be hard pressed to find insurance companies to cover these atm.
- dnhz 7y ago
  The parent comment mentioned existing therapies. As in drugs like Humira, PD-1 inhibitors, PCSK9 inhibitors. No doubt they are complex to produce. But I was doubting that the costs of production are the reason why these drugs are expensive. Companies will charge what payers will pay. See Humira [1]: many times more costly in the US than in the UK. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab
baryphonic 7y ago
The price would rise to $0 then?

Or because biotech companies charge what insurance companies will bear for them?

by dnhz 7y ago

Or because biotech companies charge what insurance companies will bear for them?

> Or because biotech companies charge what insurance companies will bear for them? Do you actually have any evidence that substantiates your claim? Wild speculations and conspiracy theories should not have a place in discussions regarding serious matters.

0x1221 7y ago
Making a claim without providing evidence is different from "wild speculations and conspiracy theories".
- rumanator 7y ago
  If there is no evidence to substantiate or support the claim then it falls deep in the wild speculation category. And the comment is quite literally a theory on how someone is conspiring.
  - forkexec 7y ago
    No, you're being intellectually dishonest.
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > No, you're being intellectually dishonest. Asking for evidence that supports a hefty claim was never, at any point in time or space, dishonesty. It's in fact the basis for the scientific method, and the basis for laws against libel and slander. Throwing personal attacks like yours, however, particularly while intentionally turning a blind eye to the lack of substance or support of a few claims based on a conspiracy theory, speaks volumes about you.
jxf 7y ago
That isn't speculation; it's just a factual statement about how capitalism and a free market works. Prices rise to the level people will bear.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
logicallee 7y ago
Your tone is really weird. No conspiracy is required in the case of a single company setting prices on its patented medical discoveries. Since you're so critical of conspiracies, though, I'd (genuinely) love your take on something that does require a conspiracy: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-diabetes-insulin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-di... (For me the Google amp link brought up the full article. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opinion/cost-insurance-diabetes-insulin.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/opin... ). Without a conspiracy, what keeps any drug company from selling cheap generic insulin in the United States? The reason I ask is that I really don't think so many companies can cooperate on price-fixing so I am looking for any other alternative explanation besides an illegal price-fixing conspiracy which I think would be very difficult to pull off among so many players and laws making it illegal. But the comment you replied to isn't like that and doesn't require a conspiracy.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  You might be surprised: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspiracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspira... https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/worldbusiness/12cartel.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/worldbusiness/12... https://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/igamisugaya_170309_vitamincartels.pdf https://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/igamisugaya_1... That’s just a few, and just the ones they caught. It’s very hard to prosecute this case, and the incentive to collude is huge.
  - logicallee 7y ago
    Interesting links! Thank you.
dnhz 7y ago
See Humira [1]. Costs more than 5x more in the US than the UK. I’m not speculating on what a potential anti covid drug will cost; I’m talking about existing mAb therapies. And I didn’t think it a controversial point that drug companies charge as much as they can while their therapies are still protected by patents and, in the case of antibodies, manufacturing expertise. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab

dogma1138 7y ago

Monolocal antibodies require a complex and expensive process of cell cloning there are only a handful of labs capable of producing these and non of these can scale up production to anything close that is needed for a large scale epidemic not to mention a world wide pandemic. This is still cutting edge biotech used for experimental treatment for cancer and other diseases often getting an orphan drug or other exemption certification to go on the market. You also will be hard pressed to find insurance companies to cover these atm.

dnhz 7y ago
The parent comment mentioned existing therapies. As in drugs like Humira, PD-1 inhibitors, PCSK9 inhibitors. No doubt they are complex to produce. But I was doubting that the costs of production are the reason why these drugs are expensive. Companies will charge what payers will pay. See Humira [1]: many times more costly in the US than in the UK. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalimumab

baryphonic 7y ago

The price would rise to $0 then?