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Livestock production is far more efficient use of land than agriculture to feed vegans which requires far more land to feed the human population far less effici

Livestock production is far more efficient use of land than agriculture to feed vegans which requires far more land to feed the human population far less efficiently. We can use low quality land for livestock grazing or feed. Something that you can't use for human vegetation. > So meat eating is not only a big driver in climate change and antibiotic resistance but is also dramatically increasing the likelihood of these crossover pandemics. The human population grew from 250 million in the 1800s to 7 billion today thanks to meat consumption, oil, etc. Blaming meat, oil, etc isn't going to get you very far because facts and reality are hurdles that you just can't overcome. > It's time for us to quit our toxic addiction to meat. The only truly toxic thing is vegetation because plants release toxins to prevent being eaten. https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-can-hear-themselves-being-eaten-researchers-have-discovered https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-can-hear-themselves-bein... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivor... Not to mention the amounts of pesticides and chemicals that you have to use on vegetation for human consumption.

cageface 7y ago
This is just laughably incorrect. You couldn't come anywhere close to meeting current demand for meat with free foraging animals. If that were the case why do we have CAFO farms? The level of delusion and misinformation on this issue is tragic and mindboggling but go ahead and enjoy your selfish tech bro lifestyle.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  > You couldn't come anywhere close to meeting current demand for meat with free foraging animals. Where did I say this? I'm used to straw man arguments from vegans but not this blatant. > The level of delusion and misinformation on this issue is tragic and mindboggling You are just using talking points that you just use when you are confronted with reality. > but go ahead and enjoy your selfish tech bro lifestyle. The most selfish, privileged people I've come across are vegans. A vegan diet is a wealthy privileged diet and an unnatural one at that. A diet that relies on globalism and can't be sourced locally. People can eat an omnivore diet from local sources. Nobody on earth can eat a vegan diet from local sources. Not a privileged swedish vegan, not a privileged brazilian vegan or a innuit vegan if there is such a thing. The worst diet for the environment is the vegan diet. Think about it or go learn a thing or two about agriculture. Instead of delusional vegan propaganda. The worst diet for humans is a vegan diet. Ever notice why there has been no vegan society in human history? Because humans aren't herbivores. We aren't cows. But privileged and selfish vegans can exploit globalism to get vegetation from all over the world to feed their selfish privileged existence and of course pop them pills to poorly sustain yourself as you cling on to your faux moral high ground. One cow feeds a bunch of people. One vegan dish has thousands of dead animal parts in it. You might want to read about how many insect, rodent, etc parts is in your salad. You might want to read about how many poor farmers are killed to get you that avocado and how many animals are killed to sustain your selfish privileged diet. A person eating a steak knows one animal died for his meal. A vegan eating a salad knows thousands of animals died for his meal but instead pretend to be the moral superior.
  - uxcolumbo 7y ago
    Again really interesting claims you make, but please provide credible sources to back it all up. For example: RE: The worst diet for humans is a vegan diet. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] recommends a more plant-based diet, the opposite of what you claim. [0] https://www.pcrm.org/ https://www.pcrm.org/
    - antiscienze 7y ago
      >credible sources to back it all up. >The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] The PCRM is a credible source ? why ? because it has Physician in the name? It's an antiscience political group of the far left who ardently fight against animal use in experiments despite how helpful it has been for human progress as a whole. They aren't vegans because they feel it's better for human health. They are vegans because they are psychotically opposed to any use of animals at all. >In 2018, the Physicians Committee co-sponsored the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act, which California signed into law. The law will make it unlawful for cosmetic manufacturers to sell any cosmetic in California if the final product or any component of the product was tested on animals after Jan. 1, 2020, with some exceptions for regulatory requirements. If this is what you call credible sources you don't even realize you're shooting your own foot kid.
      - uxcolumbo 7y ago
        Well your username (antiscience) speaks for itself... but What's wrong with trying to reduce cruelty in our society? RE: because it has Physician in the name? No, because PCRM draws the expertise from around 12,000 physicians and their core experts all have a medical background. Here is another source from the American Dietetic Association, who say you can be perfectly healthy on a plant-based diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 But maybe those sources are not anti-science enough for you?
    - dntbnmpls 7y ago
      > Again really interesting claims you make, but please provide credible sources to back it all up. It's called reality and human evolution. Do me a favor and find me a single vegan society that has existed anywhere on earth? You won't because a vegan diet in nature is a suicide diet. > The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] recommends a more plant-based diet, the opposite of what you claim How is that the opposite? A more plant-based diet isn't a vegan diet. Otherwise, it would say an "all plant-based diet". Typical sneaky vegan m.o. I'm for eating veggies, fruits, etc. I'm also for eating meat. Because humans are omnivores and that's the best diet for humans. No amount of vegan paid propaganda sources is going to change that reality.
uxcolumbo 7y ago
This is really interesting. Do you have any source to back up what you wrote or is it just your opinion? From what I read giving up our meat heavy diet is going to be necessary to reduce GHG emissions. And not only that - the heavy animal agriculture industry also contributes to biodiversity loss and pollution. This researcher[1] from the Oxford University conducted a 5 year study to understand the impact our current food choices have on the environment. He gave up meat & dairy as the conclusion of the study was that adopting a more plant based diet is the single best thing an individual can do to reduce their own carbon footprint. The UN released a similar report and recommended the same - to heavily reduce or give up meat completely. And then there is the water usage required for animal agriculture [2]. Sources: [0] https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-diets/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-di... [1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987.full?ijkey=ffyeW1F0oSl6k&keytype=ref&siteid=sci https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987.full?ijk... [2] https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-... EDIT: formatting
Hokusai 7y ago
> Livestock production is far more efficient use of land than agriculture to feed vegans which requires far more land to feed the human population far less efficiently. We can use low quality land for livestock grazing or feed. Something that you can't use for human vegetation. This argument makes no sense at all. We should start listening more to science and less to random comments in a forum. Reduction of meat production is needed to reduce global warming. Miss-information and under investment in clean energy, health care, education, and other basic necessities put all us at risk.
gdubs 7y ago
Sustainable grazing can lead to carbon sequestration — so it’s a better alternative to factory farming — but what really needs to happen is a mass conversion of pasture back to natural forests. The argument that meat is somehow a better use of land is incorrect however. Most calories are currently grown to feed animals. Typically in mono crops. These are usually drenched in petrochemicals. Vegan food is currently more of an “edge” product of a food system geared towards animal agriculture. So no, it’s not very sustainable either. But it doesn’t have to be like that. Regenerative farming practices and agroforestry can produce sufficient vegetable crops, including perennial staple crops, to feed the world. It just requires an attitude change. People get angry when you talk about reducing meat consumption. I get it — I went through a difficult few weeks when I stopped 5 years ago. It was like giving up cigarettes, alcohol, or sugar. But during WWII when all the good meat was going to the front lines, the government ran a massive campaign to get people to eat liver. People didn’t like liver. But they successfully changed people’s habits. If we were able to do that, I believe we can convince people to eat less meat. Sources: “The Carbon Farming Solution”, “The Power of Habit.”
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  > The argument that meat is somehow a better use of land is incorrect however. Actually it's a fact. > Most calories are currently grown to feed animals. Typically in mono crops. Yes calories that we can't otherwise access is fed to animals who can use it and in turn we eat the animals. Magic. Also, those "mono crops" are grown on poor quality land and in harsh environments where we can't grow avocados, oranges, almonds, etc. You get the idea? If we went vegan, we'd have to level many times more land with richer and warmer climates to grow enough to barely, inefficiently and poorly feed the population. > These are usually drenched in petrochemicals. Petrochemicals are fertilizer, so yes, they are "drenched in it" like all farmed products. Of course if we turned to veganism, we'd had to use many times more petrochemicals, pesticides, etc. Really great for the environment. /s > I get it — I went through a difficult few weeks when I stopped 5 years ago. Me too. Sounds about right, around the time of the social media propaganda led vegan craze. I got caught up in that nonsense too and even went around with others downvote brigading and spewing lies and misinformation and all sorts of vegan propaganda online. Hopefully you wake up before you do lasting damage to your health. > It was like giving up cigarettes, alcohol, or sugar. You mean it was like taking up smoking, drinking, etc. Your health, energy, mental ability, etc all decline. > But during WWII when all the good meat was going to the front lines, the government ran a massive campaign to get people to eat liver. Great. Liver is a great nutritious piece of meat and everyone should eat it. I don't know why we primarily go for muscle meats and disregard liver. A bit of butter and onions with liver can be as tasty as a ribeye steak. > But they successfully changed people’s habits. Considering how cheap liver is, no they didn't. > If we were able to do that, I believe we can convince people to eat less meat. Actually we should convince people to eat more meat ( or more kinds of meat ). It's sad that we mostly go for steak/roast and ignore offal, tail, tongue, etc. > Sources: “The Carbon Farming Solution”, “The Power of Habit.” Seems familiar. Sounds about right. I hope one day you wake and realize how silly it all is and how you wasted so much of your life on nonsense. If you care about the environment and people's health, then veganism is your enemy. If you want globalism, virtue signaling and feeling superior then veganism is the right cult for you. Veganism is like a virus. Once you've been infected, you either die or develop an immunity to it. That's why I encourage more people to try veganism and learn about farming and your food. Most sane people will come to abhor veganism like the cultish virus it is. The remaining few will either die from poor diet or cheat like the "healthy vegans" who eat meat on the side.

cageface 7y ago

This is just laughably incorrect. You couldn't come anywhere close to meeting current demand for meat with free foraging animals. If that were the case why do we have CAFO farms? The level of delusion and misinformation on this issue is tragic and mindboggling but go ahead and enjoy your selfish tech bro lifestyle.

dntbnmpls 7y ago
> You couldn't come anywhere close to meeting current demand for meat with free foraging animals. Where did I say this? I'm used to straw man arguments from vegans but not this blatant. > The level of delusion and misinformation on this issue is tragic and mindboggling You are just using talking points that you just use when you are confronted with reality. > but go ahead and enjoy your selfish tech bro lifestyle. The most selfish, privileged people I've come across are vegans. A vegan diet is a wealthy privileged diet and an unnatural one at that. A diet that relies on globalism and can't be sourced locally. People can eat an omnivore diet from local sources. Nobody on earth can eat a vegan diet from local sources. Not a privileged swedish vegan, not a privileged brazilian vegan or a innuit vegan if there is such a thing. The worst diet for the environment is the vegan diet. Think about it or go learn a thing or two about agriculture. Instead of delusional vegan propaganda. The worst diet for humans is a vegan diet. Ever notice why there has been no vegan society in human history? Because humans aren't herbivores. We aren't cows. But privileged and selfish vegans can exploit globalism to get vegetation from all over the world to feed their selfish privileged existence and of course pop them pills to poorly sustain yourself as you cling on to your faux moral high ground. One cow feeds a bunch of people. One vegan dish has thousands of dead animal parts in it. You might want to read about how many insect, rodent, etc parts is in your salad. You might want to read about how many poor farmers are killed to get you that avocado and how many animals are killed to sustain your selfish privileged diet. A person eating a steak knows one animal died for his meal. A vegan eating a salad knows thousands of animals died for his meal but instead pretend to be the moral superior.
- uxcolumbo 7y ago
  Again really interesting claims you make, but please provide credible sources to back it all up. For example: RE: The worst diet for humans is a vegan diet. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] recommends a more plant-based diet, the opposite of what you claim. [0] https://www.pcrm.org/ https://www.pcrm.org/
  - antiscienze 7y ago
    >credible sources to back it all up. >The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] The PCRM is a credible source ? why ? because it has Physician in the name? It's an antiscience political group of the far left who ardently fight against animal use in experiments despite how helpful it has been for human progress as a whole. They aren't vegans because they feel it's better for human health. They are vegans because they are psychotically opposed to any use of animals at all. >In 2018, the Physicians Committee co-sponsored the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act, which California signed into law. The law will make it unlawful for cosmetic manufacturers to sell any cosmetic in California if the final product or any component of the product was tested on animals after Jan. 1, 2020, with some exceptions for regulatory requirements. If this is what you call credible sources you don't even realize you're shooting your own foot kid.
    - uxcolumbo 7y ago
      Well your username (antiscience) speaks for itself... but What's wrong with trying to reduce cruelty in our society? RE: because it has Physician in the name? No, because PCRM draws the expertise from around 12,000 physicians and their core experts all have a medical background. Here is another source from the American Dietetic Association, who say you can be perfectly healthy on a plant-based diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 But maybe those sources are not anti-science enough for you?
  - dntbnmpls 7y ago
    > Again really interesting claims you make, but please provide credible sources to back it all up. It's called reality and human evolution. Do me a favor and find me a single vegan society that has existed anywhere on earth? You won't because a vegan diet in nature is a suicide diet. > The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine[0] recommends a more plant-based diet, the opposite of what you claim How is that the opposite? A more plant-based diet isn't a vegan diet. Otherwise, it would say an "all plant-based diet". Typical sneaky vegan m.o. I'm for eating veggies, fruits, etc. I'm also for eating meat. Because humans are omnivores and that's the best diet for humans. No amount of vegan paid propaganda sources is going to change that reality.

uxcolumbo 7y ago

This is really interesting. Do you have any source to back up what you wrote or is it just your opinion? From what I read giving up our meat heavy diet is going to be necessary to reduce GHG emissions. And not only that - the heavy animal agriculture industry also contributes to biodiversity loss and pollution. This researcher[1] from the Oxford University conducted a 5 year study to understand the impact our current food choices have on the environment. He gave up meat & dairy as the conclusion of the study was that adopting a more plant based diet is the single best thing an individual can do to reduce their own carbon footprint. The UN released a similar report and recommended the same - to heavily reduce or give up meat completely. And then there is the water usage required for animal agriculture [2]. Sources: [0] https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-diets/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-di... [1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987.full?ijkey=ffyeW1F0oSl6k&keytype=ref&siteid=sci https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987.full?ijk... [2] https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-... EDIT: formatting

Hokusai 7y ago

> Livestock production is far more efficient use of land than agriculture to feed vegans which requires far more land to feed the human population far less efficiently. We can use low quality land for livestock grazing or feed. Something that you can't use for human vegetation. This argument makes no sense at all. We should start listening more to science and less to random comments in a forum. Reduction of meat production is needed to reduce global warming. Miss-information and under investment in clean energy, health care, education, and other basic necessities put all us at risk.

gdubs 7y ago

Sustainable grazing can lead to carbon sequestration — so it’s a better alternative to factory farming — but what really needs to happen is a mass conversion of pasture back to natural forests. The argument that meat is somehow a better use of land is incorrect however. Most calories are currently grown to feed animals. Typically in mono crops. These are usually drenched in petrochemicals. Vegan food is currently more of an “edge” product of a food system geared towards animal agriculture. So no, it’s not very sustainable either. But it doesn’t have to be like that. Regenerative farming practices and agroforestry can produce sufficient vegetable crops, including perennial staple crops, to feed the world. It just requires an attitude change. People get angry when you talk about reducing meat consumption. I get it — I went through a difficult few weeks when I stopped 5 years ago. It was like giving up cigarettes, alcohol, or sugar. But during WWII when all the good meat was going to the front lines, the government ran a massive campaign to get people to eat liver. People didn’t like liver. But they successfully changed people’s habits. If we were able to do that, I believe we can convince people to eat less meat. Sources: “The Carbon Farming Solution”, “The Power of Habit.”

dntbnmpls 7y ago
> The argument that meat is somehow a better use of land is incorrect however. Actually it's a fact. > Most calories are currently grown to feed animals. Typically in mono crops. Yes calories that we can't otherwise access is fed to animals who can use it and in turn we eat the animals. Magic. Also, those "mono crops" are grown on poor quality land and in harsh environments where we can't grow avocados, oranges, almonds, etc. You get the idea? If we went vegan, we'd have to level many times more land with richer and warmer climates to grow enough to barely, inefficiently and poorly feed the population. > These are usually drenched in petrochemicals. Petrochemicals are fertilizer, so yes, they are "drenched in it" like all farmed products. Of course if we turned to veganism, we'd had to use many times more petrochemicals, pesticides, etc. Really great for the environment. /s > I get it — I went through a difficult few weeks when I stopped 5 years ago. Me too. Sounds about right, around the time of the social media propaganda led vegan craze. I got caught up in that nonsense too and even went around with others downvote brigading and spewing lies and misinformation and all sorts of vegan propaganda online. Hopefully you wake up before you do lasting damage to your health. > It was like giving up cigarettes, alcohol, or sugar. You mean it was like taking up smoking, drinking, etc. Your health, energy, mental ability, etc all decline. > But during WWII when all the good meat was going to the front lines, the government ran a massive campaign to get people to eat liver. Great. Liver is a great nutritious piece of meat and everyone should eat it. I don't know why we primarily go for muscle meats and disregard liver. A bit of butter and onions with liver can be as tasty as a ribeye steak. > But they successfully changed people’s habits. Considering how cheap liver is, no they didn't. > If we were able to do that, I believe we can convince people to eat less meat. Actually we should convince people to eat more meat ( or more kinds of meat ). It's sad that we mostly go for steak/roast and ignore offal, tail, tongue, etc. > Sources: “The Carbon Farming Solution”, “The Power of Habit.” Seems familiar. Sounds about right. I hope one day you wake and realize how silly it all is and how you wasted so much of your life on nonsense. If you care about the environment and people's health, then veganism is your enemy. If you want globalism, virtue signaling and feeling superior then veganism is the right cult for you. Veganism is like a virus. Once you've been infected, you either die or develop an immunity to it. That's why I encourage more people to try veganism and learn about farming and your food. Most sane people will come to abhor veganism like the cultish virus it is. The remaining few will either die from poor diet or cheat like the "healthy vegans" who eat meat on the side.