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The issue is that with the kind of ventilation required you need to sedate the patient with gasses and you need to recycle those gasses and unused oxygen. With
by kokey 7y ago
The issue is that with the kind of ventilation required you need to sedate the patient with gasses and you need to recycle those gasses and unused oxygen. With the length of time patients have to be on this you don't want to lose those gasses and also pump it out into the atmosphere. The Manley design could be a good starting point I suppose, you just have to replace the weight system with controllers and add a carbon scrubbing stage to feed back the gasses. The carbon scrubbing stage is the tricky one, it's something that requires good chemistry and not mechanics and electronics.
- robryk 7y agoI am ignorant as far as the use of inhalable medications is concerned. However, I find it weird that you'd want to recycle oxygen: carbon dioxide removal is either hard or requires consumables, while oxygen can be concentrates from air using a simple process that consumers only energy (by adsorbing nitrogen on surfaces of particular minerals).
- semenko 7y agoPhysician here; this isn't true for the ventilation of COVID patients, or ICU patients in general. There's a difference between simple ventilator [1], and an anesthesia machine [2] that adds gas mixing, scavenging, etc. ICU patients are anesthetized using IV sedation (a common regimen in the US is fentanyl/propofol), not inhalational anesthetics. Most vents only have simple inline filters to reduce contamination. [1] A classic vent in the US is the Puritan Bennett 840. Here's its manual showing filters: https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/covidien/library/us/en/product/acute-care-ventilation/PB840_Technical_Reference_Manual_EN_10067720D00.pdf https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/covidien/library/us/en... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaesthetic_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaesthetic_machine
- kokey 7y agoI suppose that's good news then for potential emergency use of unapproved makeshift alternatives to ventilators, I guess it also makes hand ventilation viable if you have enough volunteers available to do the bagging.
- wbl 7y agoBagging is hard to do for extended periods.
- DataDrivenMD 7y agoAnesthesiologist here - true, I was a Stanford medical student on an ICU rotation when a Tesla employee crashed his plane into high voltage power lines while attempting to land at San Carlos airport. Electrical power on the peninsula was out for an extended period of time. Battery backups eventually failed, then gas powered generators started failing so everyone with a pair of hands took turns manually ventilating the patients. If push comes to shove, we could get by with a Jackson-Reese circuit and a pair of hands. Obviously we don’t want to find ourselves in this situation.
- 93po 7y agoWhy is it relevant he was a Tesla employee?
- MrBeansForReal 7y agowhy not?
- mackman 7y agoI have an MTV (manually triggered ventilator) in my O2 kit for a scuba diving emergencies. Of course my O2 supply is only good for about 15 minutes. Would this be of any assistance while waiting for an ENT to arrive?
- semi-extrinsic 7y agoDo you think a simple design like the Manley would pass muster today? Seriously thinking about putting together a group of people to start producing these locally. Around campus we have a significant capacity in manufacturing precision mechanical devices.
- ajross 7y agoFWIW: in the kind of disaster these kind of home brew devices are targetted at, they're unlikely to be used on sedated patients. I read this as "how to save a life with a vaccuum cleaner in extremis", and not "here's a good ventilator design". Is it a good idea? I dunno. I'll check on the vaccuum today just in case. Also FWIW: the air path doesn't seem like the critical piece here. My (amateur) intuition tells me that the number of lives saved by amateur ventilators will be rather less than the number killed by amateur intubation devices.
- dwheeler 7y agoIf amateur ventilators are only used when ventilation is required and standard ventilators are not available, that still may be a good answer.. still, I am sure that there are better and worse designs for amateur ventilators, it would be best if someone who knew they were doing reviewed various designs and could recommend the best of the bad situations.
- ajross 7y agoMore amateur intuition: there are probably more available trained health care providers (e.g. radiologists who put tubes in as med students) than there are devices. These things aren't going to be needed by "us", but by them. They need to be the ones coming up to speed. Again: I'd be sort of OK with a ventilator manufactured by a HN reader. Under no circumstances do I want a software geek putting a tube in me.
- DataDrivenMD 7y agoAnesthesiologist here - sedation is ideal for managing patients in respiratory failure, though volatile anesthesia is not commonly used in an ICU setting (at least not in the US). It is more common to use IV drugs such as dexmedetomidine, fentanyl, or dilaudid.