3 ms·

For a company that literally owns a significant chunk of all the money available in the world, this response seems tepid at best.

kbenson 7y ago
More money doesn't always make something happen faster or better. Governments are likely spending hundreds of millions to billions. Even if Apple had committed a billion dollars, would that result in better training, more personnel, more useful medication, medication where it needs to be, better tests, or more testing in the short term? I suspect the answer is no, because I think those are likely all constrained on the supply side right now and money is not currently the problem. It's sort of like a disaster happening in the area close to you. Maybe you go to try to donate your time to help others affected by the disaster. Maybe when you get there you see 50 other people standing around twiddling their thumbs because there's more people than they have useful tasks for at the moment. Do you stick around all day with nothing to do so you can say you helped, or do you leave after 30 minutes and promise you'll check back tomorrow to see if they have more use for you then?
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  > More money doesn't always make something happen faster or better. Elon Musk tweeted "Coronavirus panic is dumb"[1]. When there were school kids stuck in a cave, he sent a team of engineers halfway round the world to try and build a submarine rescue effort. Instead of tweeting that, he could have tried to build cheap CPAP/respirators in bulk, on short notice and deliver them to hospitals. I'm not saying he should have, but SpaceX dropped the price of rocketry a lot by trying and using off the shelf components; manufacturing is something which effort and money could plausibly move the needle on quickly, where research into speculative medication might not have any results, and that is something we can imagine him doing where we can't imagine a large company with big manufacturing experience pivoting to doing unexpectedly. [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528?ref_...
  - kbenson 7y ago
    > Instead of tweeting that, he could have tried to build cheap CPAP/respirators in bulk, on short notice and deliver them to hospitals. Could he have? How long would it take to retool and retrain whatever resources are needed to be able to do that and actually start producing something? What capacity would he be capable of putting out, given that his his facilities are probably configured for a much difference scale (cars and large semi-bespoke aeronautical components)? If it's a 5% increase in CPAP machines 6 months from now, how helpful is that? What if doing so means that 20% of the workforce no longer has work to do? What if not producing their actual product and CPAP machines instead leads to enough loss in money/market they need to let some amount of their workforce go? At some level I don't think asking Musk or Tesla/SapceX to do this is really any different than asking you to work half days for three months and donate the other half your time to helping with Coronavirus issues in some manner while living off savings to help supplement less pay. If during or at the end of that time you don't have a job anymore (either because you weren't there or general market recession), or some major problem came up that you were unprepared to address because you've been reducing your savings, was that a smart thing to do? Did it help more than it hurt? What if you have a family to support? Musk's responsibility is to his stock holders and employees. He should do his best to make sure his company runs well and is profitable enough that he's not laying people off, or causing the stock price to drop any more than it might because the general market is in free fall, which also negatively affects many (including retirees and pension funds).
    - jodrellblank 7y ago
      Could he have tried? Yes he could have tried. Again, not saying he had to, but he did set a precedent with the Thailand cave rescue that he's not only after shareholder and company interest directly. An iron lung is a metal tube and some rubber seals, it's a hair's breadth from what SpaceX makes already. They were built in the 1800s. How hard can it be to pump air in and out of a tube for a few weeks? The difference is that Musk is a billionaire and could waste $1M a thousand times over, and barely move the needle on his net worth, and I couldn't. I reject your suggestion that Musk trying to build some air pumps and failing might leave him homeless and unable to provide for his family and leave Tesla/SpaceX in tatters. > how long would it take to retool and retrain whatever resources are needed to be able to do that and actually start producing something? Tesla crowed about building an "entire new general assembly line" in 3 weeks with "minimal resources" when they started building cars in a tent in 2018: https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/22/17488372/tesla-model-3-production-tent-expand https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/22/17488372/tesla-model-3-pr... Let's imagine that making ventilators is simpler than cars, so how about ... i dunno .. 2 weeks? > At some level I don't think asking Musk or Tesla/SapceX to do this is really any different to .. To .. the UK government asking carmakers (and other companies) to investigate whether they could produce ventilators? Because they have done that - Ford, JCB, Rolls Royce, are "looking into it". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490 A producer of ventilators says, in that article, "they can't they can't, woe, woe" which is what the space industry used to say about SpaceX, and the car industry about decent electric cars. ""The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson." - a) change the rules for an emergency situation, b) instead of making positive pressure ventilators which have to force clean air into a patient's face with all kinds of sterility problems, make negative pressure ones which the patient is inside and not otherwise touching or breathing air out of, lowering the risk of infection and other complications. > If it's a 5% increase in CPAP machines 6 months from now, how helpful is that? Good question. Who knows? The company in the above link makes 750 ventilators annually, so a 5% increase in those would be making 37 machines. Imagine if a billionaire made 37 machines and didn't save anyone. What folly. Everyone would laugh!(?) Have you seen any suggestions that COVID-19 will be done and dusted, worldwide, in 6 months? Can't think that I have.
ineedasername 7y ago
What would be a more suitable response? Giving employees that need to be out of work more money than they usually make?

kbenson 7y ago

More money doesn't always make something happen faster or better. Governments are likely spending hundreds of millions to billions. Even if Apple had committed a billion dollars, would that result in better training, more personnel, more useful medication, medication where it needs to be, better tests, or more testing in the short term? I suspect the answer is no, because I think those are likely all constrained on the supply side right now and money is not currently the problem. It's sort of like a disaster happening in the area close to you. Maybe you go to try to donate your time to help others affected by the disaster. Maybe when you get there you see 50 other people standing around twiddling their thumbs because there's more people than they have useful tasks for at the moment. Do you stick around all day with nothing to do so you can say you helped, or do you leave after 30 minutes and promise you'll check back tomorrow to see if they have more use for you then?

jodrellblank 7y ago
> More money doesn't always make something happen faster or better. Elon Musk tweeted "Coronavirus panic is dumb"[1]. When there were school kids stuck in a cave, he sent a team of engineers halfway round the world to try and build a submarine rescue effort. Instead of tweeting that, he could have tried to build cheap CPAP/respirators in bulk, on short notice and deliver them to hospitals. I'm not saying he should have, but SpaceX dropped the price of rocketry a lot by trying and using off the shelf components; manufacturing is something which effort and money could plausibly move the needle on quickly, where research into speculative medication might not have any results, and that is something we can imagine him doing where we can't imagine a large company with big manufacturing experience pivoting to doing unexpectedly. [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528?ref_...
- kbenson 7y ago
  > Instead of tweeting that, he could have tried to build cheap CPAP/respirators in bulk, on short notice and deliver them to hospitals. Could he have? How long would it take to retool and retrain whatever resources are needed to be able to do that and actually start producing something? What capacity would he be capable of putting out, given that his his facilities are probably configured for a much difference scale (cars and large semi-bespoke aeronautical components)? If it's a 5% increase in CPAP machines 6 months from now, how helpful is that? What if doing so means that 20% of the workforce no longer has work to do? What if not producing their actual product and CPAP machines instead leads to enough loss in money/market they need to let some amount of their workforce go? At some level I don't think asking Musk or Tesla/SapceX to do this is really any different than asking you to work half days for three months and donate the other half your time to helping with Coronavirus issues in some manner while living off savings to help supplement less pay. If during or at the end of that time you don't have a job anymore (either because you weren't there or general market recession), or some major problem came up that you were unprepared to address because you've been reducing your savings, was that a smart thing to do? Did it help more than it hurt? What if you have a family to support? Musk's responsibility is to his stock holders and employees. He should do his best to make sure his company runs well and is profitable enough that he's not laying people off, or causing the stock price to drop any more than it might because the general market is in free fall, which also negatively affects many (including retirees and pension funds).
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    Could he have tried? Yes he could have tried. Again, not saying he had to, but he did set a precedent with the Thailand cave rescue that he's not only after shareholder and company interest directly. An iron lung is a metal tube and some rubber seals, it's a hair's breadth from what SpaceX makes already. They were built in the 1800s. How hard can it be to pump air in and out of a tube for a few weeks? The difference is that Musk is a billionaire and could waste $1M a thousand times over, and barely move the needle on his net worth, and I couldn't. I reject your suggestion that Musk trying to build some air pumps and failing might leave him homeless and unable to provide for his family and leave Tesla/SpaceX in tatters. > how long would it take to retool and retrain whatever resources are needed to be able to do that and actually start producing something? Tesla crowed about building an "entire new general assembly line" in 3 weeks with "minimal resources" when they started building cars in a tent in 2018: https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/22/17488372/tesla-model-3-production-tent-expand https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/22/17488372/tesla-model-3-pr... Let's imagine that making ventilators is simpler than cars, so how about ... i dunno .. 2 weeks? > At some level I don't think asking Musk or Tesla/SapceX to do this is really any different to .. To .. the UK government asking carmakers (and other companies) to investigate whether they could produce ventilators? Because they have done that - Ford, JCB, Rolls Royce, are "looking into it". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490 A producer of ventilators says, in that article, "they can't they can't, woe, woe" which is what the space industry used to say about SpaceX, and the car industry about decent electric cars. ""The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson." - a) change the rules for an emergency situation, b) instead of making positive pressure ventilators which have to force clean air into a patient's face with all kinds of sterility problems, make negative pressure ones which the patient is inside and not otherwise touching or breathing air out of, lowering the risk of infection and other complications. > If it's a 5% increase in CPAP machines 6 months from now, how helpful is that? Good question. Who knows? The company in the above link makes 750 ventilators annually, so a 5% increase in those would be making 37 machines. Imagine if a billionaire made 37 machines and didn't save anyone. What folly. Everyone would laugh!(?) Have you seen any suggestions that COVID-19 will be done and dusted, worldwide, in 6 months? Can't think that I have.

ineedasername 7y ago

What would be a more suitable response? Giving employees that need to be out of work more money than they usually make?