7 ms·

This crisis sure is exposing a whole lot of things as quite possible that people keep saying is 'impossible'.

by Tiktaalik 7y ago

baryphonic 7y ago
What was it Rahm Emanuel said? "Never let a serious crisis go to waste."
- bbatha 7y ago
  That was Churchill
  - baryphonic 7y ago
    Definitely Emanuel[1], and with elaboration. [1] https://youtu.be/1yeA_kHHLow https://youtu.be/1yeA_kHHLow
    - isoskeles 7y ago
      Then he’s definitely repeating an idea that has been around for a long time.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
roenxi 7y ago
If someone says sprinting cross-country is impossible; seeing them sprinting away from a beach when a tsunami hits does not undo their claim. Nearly any arrangement is economically possible for 6 months. The government can implement price controls, enforce unlimited paid vacation and give everyone a million dollars; even that might hold together for a month before people start starving. Holding together over the medium-long term is a completely different story.
- supercanuck 7y ago
  then they would use a different word than "impossible"
  - throwGuardian 7y ago
    Hyperbole is a feature of political discourse in the US, let's not get semantic.
  - jlawson 7y ago
    What word? In normal discourse everyone knows you're talking about long term policies so unsustainable equals impossible.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    Are you sure people commonly used the term impossible for things like m4a or cancellation of student loans, and do so literally? I think the idea is the cost outweighs the benefit in non emergency situations.
    - jnsie 7y ago
      Anecdote time: I have been told numerous times, by US physicians and nurses, that m4a is impossible. That it literally is not achievable in the US. These weren't even hardcore republicans. Centrists for the most part.
      - zenexer 7y ago
        And I have been told the opposite. Even professionals are human. They have political views, just like the rest of us, and they don’t always agree.
deleted 7y ago
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deleted 7y ago
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friedman23 7y ago
These things are only temporary disaster relief. This is completely different from waiving all student debt.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Let me quote the immortal example: // somedev1 - 6/7/02 Adding temporary tracking of Login screen // somedev2 - 5/22/07 Temporary my ass
TeMPOraL 7y ago
ChuckMcM had an interesting observation elsewhere that times of such crisis are perfect for companies to deliver bad news, as the blame (and perhaps opposition) gets lost in the noise. I'm wondering if something similar will happen in politics - a lot of things that were not possible to push through in calmer times will now get implemented, with all the energy pandemic mitigation adds to them, and they'll stick after all it's done. Government has a lot of inertia after all. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571121
- numtel 7y ago
  Naomi Klein wrote a major book about this years ago called The Shock Doctrine.
  - specialist 7y ago
    I now think of these economic shocks as opportunities for profit taking, like a game of musical chairs. Sell off before the rubes notice, then buy it all back up at bargain prices. Previously, Kevin Phillips' book Wealth & Democracy in America is a more academic, pedantic telling of the same story. https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B000QEJ0U6 https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-...
- flother 7y ago
  It’s happened in politics for a long time. Two decades ago, a political advisor in the British government sent an email on 11th Sept 2001 saying the day was “a very good day to get out anything we want to bury”. It didn’t go down well, but others have been much more subtle. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1588323.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1588323.stm
- lamxa10 7y ago
  Well, not only ChuckMcM: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22566970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22566970 He however was not downvoted for the observation.
norswap 7y ago
Trump was never very ideologically inclined, so this does not seem unbelievable. He mostly acts out of self-interest and to stroke his ego (a caricature, but one which doubles as a fairly solid heuristic). As other commenters have pointed out, the interest rates are also historically low.
- hirundo 7y ago
  It's a fairly sold heuristic for the average politician.
  - simonh 7y ago
    He really does take it to another level though. Take his attitude towards engagement with Cuba. During his campaign he flipped, flopped, flipped again then flopped again all within a few weeks. Some of the reversals were literally on consecutive days, it just depended who he was talking to at the time.
apta 7y ago
We already know that it's possible to build an economy that is interest/usury free. It's been done before. It's just that the people benefiting from it today make easy money, while putting down the section of the population that needs it, ensuring continual slavery. Neither the democrats nor republicans dare bring this up.
- comeondude 7y ago
  Interesting! Got any reading material on this? Thanks
  - apta 7y ago
    Usury/interest are banned according to Islamic Law. This means that until very recently when Western banks were forced into the Middle East, all the nations there were operating interest-free. This includes the Ummayad, Abbassid, and Ottoman empires. The well-known and prosperous Islamic Golden Age[1] took place during those eras as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Eh, not really. Interest was handled by oursourcing (to Jews) or black/grey market. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba
      - apta 7y ago
        Muslims are prohibited to deal with interest with anyone, Jews or anyone else. So no, it was not outsourced to them. If Jews were allowed to lend money with interest to non-Muslims, that's a separate topic altogether. Muslims still had to work in the economy and run businesses, and it was a Muslims majority land, so a few Jews lending money with interest is not going to affect the overall economy which is not based on interest.
  - Hoenoe 7y ago

This crisis sure is exposing a whole lot of things as quite possible that people keep saying is 'impossible'.

baryphonic 7y ago

What was it Rahm Emanuel said? "Never let a serious crisis go to waste."

bbatha 7y ago
That was Churchill
- baryphonic 7y ago
  Definitely Emanuel[1], and with elaboration. [1] https://youtu.be/1yeA_kHHLow https://youtu.be/1yeA_kHHLow
  - isoskeles 7y ago
    Then he’s definitely repeating an idea that has been around for a long time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

roenxi 7y ago

If someone says sprinting cross-country is impossible; seeing them sprinting away from a beach when a tsunami hits does not undo their claim. Nearly any arrangement is economically possible for 6 months. The government can implement price controls, enforce unlimited paid vacation and give everyone a million dollars; even that might hold together for a month before people start starving. Holding together over the medium-long term is a completely different story.

supercanuck 7y ago
then they would use a different word than "impossible"
- throwGuardian 7y ago
  Hyperbole is a feature of political discourse in the US, let's not get semantic.
- jlawson 7y ago
  What word? In normal discourse everyone knows you're talking about long term policies so unsustainable equals impossible.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Are you sure people commonly used the term impossible for things like m4a or cancellation of student loans, and do so literally? I think the idea is the cost outweighs the benefit in non emergency situations.
  - jnsie 7y ago
    Anecdote time: I have been told numerous times, by US physicians and nurses, that m4a is impossible. That it literally is not achievable in the US. These weren't even hardcore republicans. Centrists for the most part.
    - zenexer 7y ago
      And I have been told the opposite. Even professionals are human. They have political views, just like the rest of us, and they don’t always agree.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

friedman23 7y ago

These things are only temporary disaster relief. This is completely different from waiving all student debt.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Let me quote the immortal example: // somedev1 - 6/7/02 Adding temporary tracking of Login screen // somedev2 - 5/22/07 Temporary my ass

TeMPOraL 7y ago

ChuckMcM had an interesting observation elsewhere that times of such crisis are perfect for companies to deliver bad news, as the blame (and perhaps opposition) gets lost in the noise. I'm wondering if something similar will happen in politics - a lot of things that were not possible to push through in calmer times will now get implemented, with all the energy pandemic mitigation adds to them, and they'll stick after all it's done. Government has a lot of inertia after all. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571121

numtel 7y ago
Naomi Klein wrote a major book about this years ago called The Shock Doctrine.
- specialist 7y ago
  I now think of these economic shocks as opportunities for profit taking, like a game of musical chairs. Sell off before the rubes notice, then buy it all back up at bargain prices. Previously, Kevin Phillips' book Wealth & Democracy in America is a more academic, pedantic telling of the same story. https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B000QEJ0U6 https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-...
flother 7y ago
It’s happened in politics for a long time. Two decades ago, a political advisor in the British government sent an email on 11th Sept 2001 saying the day was “a very good day to get out anything we want to bury”. It didn’t go down well, but others have been much more subtle. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1588323.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1588323.stm
lamxa10 7y ago
Well, not only ChuckMcM: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22566970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22566970 He however was not downvoted for the observation.

norswap 7y ago

Trump was never very ideologically inclined, so this does not seem unbelievable. He mostly acts out of self-interest and to stroke his ego (a caricature, but one which doubles as a fairly solid heuristic). As other commenters have pointed out, the interest rates are also historically low.

hirundo 7y ago
It's a fairly sold heuristic for the average politician.
- simonh 7y ago
  He really does take it to another level though. Take his attitude towards engagement with Cuba. During his campaign he flipped, flopped, flipped again then flopped again all within a few weeks. Some of the reversals were literally on consecutive days, it just depended who he was talking to at the time.

apta 7y ago

We already know that it's possible to build an economy that is interest/usury free. It's been done before. It's just that the people benefiting from it today make easy money, while putting down the section of the population that needs it, ensuring continual slavery. Neither the democrats nor republicans dare bring this up.

comeondude 7y ago
Interesting! Got any reading material on this? Thanks
- apta 7y ago
  Usury/interest are banned according to Islamic Law. This means that until very recently when Western banks were forced into the Middle East, all the nations there were operating interest-free. This includes the Ummayad, Abbassid, and Ottoman empires. The well-known and prosperous Islamic Golden Age[1] took place during those eras as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Eh, not really. Interest was handled by oursourcing (to Jews) or black/grey market. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba
    - apta 7y ago
      Muslims are prohibited to deal with interest with anyone, Jews or anyone else. So no, it was not outsourced to them. If Jews were allowed to lend money with interest to non-Muslims, that's a separate topic altogether. Muslims still had to work in the economy and run businesses, and it was a Muslims majority land, so a few Jews lending money with interest is not going to affect the overall economy which is not based on interest.
- Hoenoe 7y ago