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Pretty quick check that. Your cynicism is astounding.
by mythrwy 7y ago
Pretty quick check that. Your cynicism is astounding.
- robomartin 7y agoAt least I am not ignorant, or naive. That's dangerous.
- scotty79 7y agoYou are ignorant because you assume US tests and masks are vastly superior to Chinese tests and masks for this application. Masks, even perfect ones barely do anything for something that infectious and tests are more for statistics to inform high level decision making than anything else. Staying away from people is the only thing that measurably does anything.
- robomartin 7y ago> You are ignorant because you assume US tests and masks are vastly superior to Chinese tests and masks for this application. Nope. That is not what I said at all. Not even close. Stop making up stuff that someone never said. What I said, very clearly, is that the difference is in TRACEABILITY and, not directly but implied, adherence to REAL SPECIFICATIONS, PERFORMANCE AND QUALITY. The Chinese are FAMOUS for taking shortcuts, faking regulatory testing, ignoring safety in designs, having contaminated and less-than-ideal work and manufacturing environments, etc. The only way you make things in China and don't get shafted in a big way is if you supervise the heck out of them. Yes, there are large reputable manufacturers, and most of them are the result of years of this kind of supervision and process improvement by the likes of Apple. Sadly, unless you operating at that scale, most companies making product in China do not necessarily have the same assurances an Apple, HP or <insert major brand> might have. In fact, the quality problem is so serious that there's a whole industry of factory inspection companies who's job is to go to the factory making your product to inspect the product you ordered before it ships. Let me say that again, you hire outside inspectors to go into the factory and inspect and test your product before it ships in order to ensure you don't get shafted. Think about that for a moment. In the US and Europe it is UNTHINKABLE to have to hire a third party to go and inspect product we produce. We provide specifications and test criteria and then expect and trust our contract manufacturer will deliver what we ordered. In China you do that at your peril. The people who are reacting negatively to my comments are doing so while completely devoid of experience and an understanding of the realities in China. You can't know this by buying an iPhone and sitting behind your screen reading HN. Those who know and understand China know exactly what I am talking about. Are there great factories and contract manufacturers in China? Absolutely! Do you still have to go there and supervise the work? Absolutely! So, please, pretty please, don't call someone ignorant when you don't really understand what you are talking about. I am just sick of this culture where insults are a replacement for taking the time to learn something and understand. > Masks, even perfect ones barely do anything for something that infectious and tests are more for statistics to inform high level decision making than anything else. Irrelevant nonsense. > Staying away from people is the only thing that measurably does anything. No. So does washing your hands, not touching your face, cleaning/disinfecting the work environment, etc. It isn't the "only" thing, it's one of many things. And yet, it is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with my proposal that, at the end of the day, a bunch of free masks and kits with no traceability and quality control are a terrible idea and not a gift we should accept or use in any way. Here's a hypothetical scenario for you: You have two rooms. Each with 24 people. All of them have absolutely confirmed COVID-19 infection. You are allowed to wear gloves and a mask. Your job is to check their vital signs and do a general checkup. You have to touch them. You have to interact with them. You have to get close to them. You might have to take their masks off for some tests. You get to choose from two options: Room 1: Everyone, including yourself, is wearing US-made masks made by 3M that are traceable and are tested to be within 3M and government specifications. Room 2: Everyone, including yourself, is wearing Chinese-made masks given as gifts by some dude. We have not traceability information and they say they were tested according to US standards but nobody can tell us where they were made (which factory), who tested them and who supervised and confirmed the testing and manufacturing. Which room do you go into? Right.
- dirtyid 7y ago>Which room do you go into? Either room is preferable to Room 3: which is no one has any masks. Or the Chinese made masks in Room 2 would be validated and inspected for compliance state side. Trust but verify etc. The logical scenario is traceable US made masks is triaged for medical workers while patients use Chinese made masks that's undergone some sort of due diligence. But broadly, you're correct. Extra validation and QC should be emphasized now more than ever, China dramatically ramped up mask production by 10x normal capacity. Factory owners who do not typically make masks are spinning up production lines, raw materials is being sourced from everywhere. There's no doubt a lot of amateur hour happening which is why QC is extra critical with these batches that is at least good enough for Chinese frontline workers. Unless the risk is China would deliberately send spiked masks via Ma, in which case, why not keep the masks in storage for later propaganda uses. Knowing how heated the rhetoric is going to become, this almost makes Ma's donation a bad move in retrospect. I'd hope the donation is traceable just for that possibility.
- scotty79 7y ago> What I said, very clearly, is that the difference is in TRACEABILITY and, not directly but implied, adherence to REAL SPECIFICATIONS, PERFORMANCE AND QUALITY. What you don't seem to realize is that any such difference doesn't matter because "The goggles! They do nothing!" This virus stays airborne for 3 hours after last infected breathed in any given room. Nothing short of full hazmat suit can significantly help. Piece of cloth over your face might reduce infection by 1% and most pristine N95 mask built to most amazing US quality reduces infection by 2%. Would the difference in mask quality really matter if those were the numbers? When you have diarrhea does it matter if your toilet paper is tracable? You just need a lot of it. Not so much to efficiently help with the disease but mostly for comfort.
- inimino 7y ago> The people who are reacting negatively to my comments are doing so while completely devoid of experience and an understanding of the realities in China. You must know much more than the rest us. How many years do you have in China, 老外？ If you think the richest man in China doesn't know more than you do about "specifications, performance, and quality," you're not just misinformed, and you're not merely ignorant. If you think "Chinese-made masks given as gifts by some dude" is in any way appropriate in a discussion about a donation by Jack Ma, you know less than nothing about Chinese culture and should remain silent. If "taking the time to learn something and understand" is a value you hold, now is the time for you to do that. Your xenophobic fear-mongering is a shame to your country.
- robomartin 7y agoAs I put it in a reply to someone else's honest and intelligent question: Let's say these masks are going to protect our doctors. The risk is that garbage masks might not protect them at all. Very soon we lose entire hospitals because we used product without traceable and verified specifications and performance. How many patients die because hospitals go down due to junk masks? If, on the other hand, these masks are being used while cutting wood on a table saw to keep from inhaling sawdust, well, specifications can be very loose and it will still protect the wearer just fine. When things matter, adherence to specifications and standards while backed to real and traceable testing matters. What is ignorant is to not take the time to think, understand and become knowledgeable enough to have an opinion rooted in facts. Please stop using insults in place of doing your homework.