6 ms·

It's too bad that Comcast chose to have inferior upload speeds, about 6Mbps on standard plans in my region, no matter whether it's 100Mbps down or 1,000Mbps dow

It's too bad that Comcast chose to have inferior upload speeds, about 6Mbps on standard plans in my region, no matter whether it's 100Mbps down or 1,000Mbps down. When we're talking work from home, online learning, video conferencing, upload speed matters. Comcast tries to bury the upload number, I'm kind of surprised to see it printed in this article, and when I realized the reality I thought there must be some mistake. There is no option for a higher upload speed at less than $300/mo, which pays for a full fiber. It's great to have an option but too bad Comcast chose to make their service inflexibly inferior in this way.

milankragujevic 7y ago
That's kind of standard with DOCSIS. You can't have a lot of upload speed due to the available bandwidth for upload channels.
- coryrc 7y ago
  The balance of upload and download is configurable.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    Not if you already have a legacy cable television network it isn’t.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    Yes, by lowering the download speed, at least on DOCSIS 3.0. DOCSIS 3.0 supports up to 8 upload channels for a total speed of 216 Mbps (on 6.4 MHz per channel). That's shared for all users on the CMTS, which could be a lot, depending on the setup. For comparison, on EuroDOCSIS 3.0, with 32 channels the total download speed is 1600 Mbps for all users, and on DOCSIS 3.0 it's 1216 Mbps. DOCSIS 3.1 allows for multiple OFDMA upload channels which can allow for up to 2 Gbps shared upload speed capacity, and DOCSIS 4.0 allows for symmetric 10/10 Gbps shared capacity with an undefined split DS:US (you can have the same number of channels). It uses extended RF spectrum in the cable and also needs new amplifiers and splitters.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > Yes, by lowering the download speed, at least on DOCSIS 3.0. Which would imply that they should be able to offer a 100/100 connection for the same price as a 200/6 connection and have 6Mbps to spare.
      - milankragujevic 7y ago
        No, the maximum upload is fixed and independent of the download speed. I meant they can offer 6/6 Mbps, or 12/6 Mbps, for a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. Basically as a joke.
        AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        Even DOCSIS 3.0 supports up to 124 Mbps upload speeds using 4 channels: https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/docsis-3-0/ https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/doc... (Other sources quote it as 200Mbps? But either is a whole lot more than 6.)
        milankragujevic 7y ago
        As I have said here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22572536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22572536 , DOCSIS 3.0 supports 216 Mbps usable upload capacity with 8 upstream channels, halved to 108 Mbps with 4 upstream channels. That speed is, however, shared with ALL users on a CMTS, which could be dozens or a hundred, since the coaxial infrastructure is based on a shared medium where all devices connect to one physical cable that leads to the CMTS and share the available RF bandwidth. You could sell 1 user 100 Mbps upload with 4 channels, and have one user on a CMTS. You can also sell 6 Mbps upload to 36 users, guaranteeing them 100% of the capacity, or to 72 users, guaranteeing them 50% of the capacity. It is not feasible to sell packages with more than 50 Mbps upload on most coaxial networks (even HFC, if there are many users, i.e. more than one apartment building connected to a node) as users will not be able to use the full capacity, and the speed will inevitably drop to the sub-10 Mbps level, but the user will be unsatisfied as they are paying for and expecting higher speeds.
nolok 7y ago
Just got fiber deployed to my small city here in France, and I now pay 40 euros a month for 900 down / 500 up, with a free phone line and IPTV access. We're barely 8000 people and surrounded by farmers fields for kilometers around. And I'm still jealous of eastern countries like romania where they get better for cheaper. I don't know how such a high development country as the US can tolerate those ridiculous price, bandwith and data caps.
- cl0rkster 7y ago
  This is a bit of an old trope. "Size matters". I'm not defending the American ISP abominations like interference in allowing municipal fiber to be built, and denying access to poles so new competitors can't access public infrastructure to build a competing service without unreasonable barriers to entry. All this anti-competitive crap... Right on, I'm with you. However... America is ENORMOUS compared to any European state... and mostly unoccupied. And our government only recognizes the decaying Telco system as a public utility that we all need access to... Nevermind. I don't understand either. It's just fully stupid. The size will make it cost more... Not recognizing it's worth it... For that there are no excuses.
- dahfizz 7y ago
  Europe is over 3x as population dense as the usa. Europe also doesn't have American suburbs, so even small European towns are very population dense within the city limits. America is too spread out for the capex of fiber to be worth it outside of major cities.

milankragujevic 7y ago

That's kind of standard with DOCSIS. You can't have a lot of upload speed due to the available bandwidth for upload channels.

coryrc 7y ago
The balance of upload and download is configurable.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  Not if you already have a legacy cable television network it isn’t.
- milankragujevic 7y ago
  Yes, by lowering the download speed, at least on DOCSIS 3.0. DOCSIS 3.0 supports up to 8 upload channels for a total speed of 216 Mbps (on 6.4 MHz per channel). That's shared for all users on the CMTS, which could be a lot, depending on the setup. For comparison, on EuroDOCSIS 3.0, with 32 channels the total download speed is 1600 Mbps for all users, and on DOCSIS 3.0 it's 1216 Mbps. DOCSIS 3.1 allows for multiple OFDMA upload channels which can allow for up to 2 Gbps shared upload speed capacity, and DOCSIS 4.0 allows for symmetric 10/10 Gbps shared capacity with an undefined split DS:US (you can have the same number of channels). It uses extended RF spectrum in the cable and also needs new amplifiers and splitters.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > Yes, by lowering the download speed, at least on DOCSIS 3.0. Which would imply that they should be able to offer a 100/100 connection for the same price as a 200/6 connection and have 6Mbps to spare.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      No, the maximum upload is fixed and independent of the download speed. I meant they can offer 6/6 Mbps, or 12/6 Mbps, for a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. Basically as a joke.
      - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        Even DOCSIS 3.0 supports up to 124 Mbps upload speeds using 4 channels: https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/docsis-3-0/ https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/doc... (Other sources quote it as 200Mbps? But either is a whole lot more than 6.)
        milankragujevic 7y ago
        As I have said here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22572536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22572536 , DOCSIS 3.0 supports 216 Mbps usable upload capacity with 8 upstream channels, halved to 108 Mbps with 4 upstream channels. That speed is, however, shared with ALL users on a CMTS, which could be dozens or a hundred, since the coaxial infrastructure is based on a shared medium where all devices connect to one physical cable that leads to the CMTS and share the available RF bandwidth. You could sell 1 user 100 Mbps upload with 4 channels, and have one user on a CMTS. You can also sell 6 Mbps upload to 36 users, guaranteeing them 100% of the capacity, or to 72 users, guaranteeing them 50% of the capacity. It is not feasible to sell packages with more than 50 Mbps upload on most coaxial networks (even HFC, if there are many users, i.e. more than one apartment building connected to a node) as users will not be able to use the full capacity, and the speed will inevitably drop to the sub-10 Mbps level, but the user will be unsatisfied as they are paying for and expecting higher speeds.

nolok 7y ago

Just got fiber deployed to my small city here in France, and I now pay 40 euros a month for 900 down / 500 up, with a free phone line and IPTV access. We're barely 8000 people and surrounded by farmers fields for kilometers around. And I'm still jealous of eastern countries like romania where they get better for cheaper. I don't know how such a high development country as the US can tolerate those ridiculous price, bandwith and data caps.

cl0rkster 7y ago
This is a bit of an old trope. "Size matters". I'm not defending the American ISP abominations like interference in allowing municipal fiber to be built, and denying access to poles so new competitors can't access public infrastructure to build a competing service without unreasonable barriers to entry. All this anti-competitive crap... Right on, I'm with you. However... America is ENORMOUS compared to any European state... and mostly unoccupied. And our government only recognizes the decaying Telco system as a public utility that we all need access to... Nevermind. I don't understand either. It's just fully stupid. The size will make it cost more... Not recognizing it's worth it... For that there are no excuses.
dahfizz 7y ago
Europe is over 3x as population dense as the usa. Europe also doesn't have American suburbs, so even small European towns are very population dense within the city limits. America is too spread out for the capex of fiber to be worth it outside of major cities.