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> Ever hear the expression "Your right to your fist only extends as far as my face?" Equating physical violence with someone who called another a "looneytune"

> Ever hear the expression "Your right to your fist only extends as far as my face?" Equating physical violence with someone who called another a "looneytune" is completely unreasonable as they are NOT the same thing. The uncomfortable truth is, the freedom of expression guarantees the right of someone else to say something people disagree with, hurt your feelings, offend, or even make others angry. Also, who gets to decide when someone is being a jerk? In this case, it's a group of people who are comfortable deleting almost all evidence of Eric's supposedly offensive remarks, thereby ensuring that no one can even debate the subject reasonably. That alone, would keep me from jumping to their defense even if I agreed with their actions.

deanCommie 7y ago
And drawing an impassable wall between physical violence and verbal abuse is also completely unreasonable. The world is full of roided up assholes who would scream at someone in the face, have their victim "push them away", only to proceed to punch them back because once you cross the line into physicality a shove is the same as a punch in the face. It's bullshit. Obviously being "a jerk" to someone is not the same as physically hitting someone. But in the context of a workplace, an online forum, or a community contributing to an open source project, the choice isn't between punching someone or yelling at them. The choice is between civility and not. Between being an asshole for no reason and not. People like Linus Torvalds and ESR have significant trust in their technical leadership. If they don't like an idea they can just say "that is a bad idea. here is why". Their position is not strengthened by screaming insults at the other side. All it does is make them look childish and make people not want to contribute their time and energy to the cause. Linus figured this out eventually. ESR hasn't.
- antepodius 7y ago
  The roided up monster antagonises, waiting for the slightest excuse to explode in violence. A slightly sneakier version of the same monster would antagonise more non-physically and perpetually. There's slippery slopes and giving inches; there are deleterious attractors all human interaction ecosystems can fall into through a tragedy of the commons (see meditations on moloch by slatestarcodex). How do you prevent this, or even start to stand against it? Schelling points. The guy shouting on the corner is reliable. He's obvious and slightly unpleasant. But he's a lesser evil than the creeping decay that girdles you and smothers you while whispering honey into your ear.

deanCommie 7y ago

And drawing an impassable wall between physical violence and verbal abuse is also completely unreasonable. The world is full of roided up assholes who would scream at someone in the face, have their victim "push them away", only to proceed to punch them back because once you cross the line into physicality a shove is the same as a punch in the face. It's bullshit. Obviously being "a jerk" to someone is not the same as physically hitting someone. But in the context of a workplace, an online forum, or a community contributing to an open source project, the choice isn't between punching someone or yelling at them. The choice is between civility and not. Between being an asshole for no reason and not. People like Linus Torvalds and ESR have significant trust in their technical leadership. If they don't like an idea they can just say "that is a bad idea. here is why". Their position is not strengthened by screaming insults at the other side. All it does is make them look childish and make people not want to contribute their time and energy to the cause. Linus figured this out eventually. ESR hasn't.

antepodius 7y ago
The roided up monster antagonises, waiting for the slightest excuse to explode in violence. A slightly sneakier version of the same monster would antagonise more non-physically and perpetually. There's slippery slopes and giving inches; there are deleterious attractors all human interaction ecosystems can fall into through a tragedy of the commons (see meditations on moloch by slatestarcodex). How do you prevent this, or even start to stand against it? Schelling points. The guy shouting on the corner is reliable. He's obvious and slightly unpleasant. But he's a lesser evil than the creeping decay that girdles you and smothers you while whispering honey into your ear.