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In Germany we never went away from them. But I have to admit, most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Also, the IT apprenticeship

by k__ 7y ago

In Germany we never went away from them. But I have to admit, most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Also, the IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality. The schools use outdated material and if the companies can't compansate for that, the students are on their own.

smnrchrds 7y ago
> most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Could you please elaborate on this? What do they teach?
- k__ 7y ago
  A few of my friends learned trades like optometrist and cosmetician and never found a job.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.2% so it seems something’s working. Youth unemployment is also far lower in Germany than the European average, 7.6% rather than 23.5%, and unemployment among those who finished apprenticeship schemes rarely lasts longer than six months[1]. [1] Youth Unemployment After Apprenticeship Training and Individual, Occupation and Training Employer Characteristics http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf
    - k__ 7y ago
      Yes, the problem is, people learning optometrist, and then end up working in retail.
core-questions 7y ago
> IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality In Canada, I have found that while there's no official program for IT apprenticeship, the cultural value of implicit apprenticeship is there; perhaps an inheritance from our excellent trades programs. Thing is, you'll find it mostly in the older, more-local institutions; not so much in the sexier, flashier software companies and international conglomerates. When I started my career, fresh out of school, I worked at a small (~200 person) company. There was an IT greybeard (well, he seemed so to me, but he was only 40something). He taught me a lot, but more importantly like a good mentor he gave me room to grow, let me take on projects way beyond what any sane person would have given a 21 year old to work on, etc. The result was that I stuck around, contributed an awful lot of value, and then became eminently more employable than I had been. The next job at a much larger but still local institution had a real 60something greybeard that took this concept even further. Even now as I approach 40, there's a 50something guy at my current "senior" job who is just that much more "senior" and his wisdom is a continual benefit. It's obviously made me realize that I need to do the same thing to pay it forward. It doesn't strictly need to be an organized program where I get some co-op student, but that _can_ work; I've had some in the past to great success. What it does need to be is a keen younger person who has a learning style that benefits from personal interaction. That's really not everyone in our field; some people are simply self-starting learners and they bristle at mentorship. We should never constrain such people to "require" someone breathing down their neck, as it were; but for people who need the guidance, that have the talent and aptitude but benefit from someone else setting their focus, it is indispensable.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
You should be teaching fundamental CS/IT concepts not rote learning the latest JavaScript frontend frame work. Things like the TCP/IP stack and the OSI model, Types of programming languages, number theory (you can convert between decimal octal, hex and binary with out a calculator)
- k__ 7y ago
  This is what gets you a bunch of unemployable theorists.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    But the opposite extreme is what gets you a bunch of unmaintainable tech debt. As someone with a decent variety of experience, I value the concepts I know far far more than the individual languages and frameworks.
    - k__ 7y ago
      True, but you can teach SOLID with React. I think the technology isn't important, but how you teach.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    As this is for school kids 13-18 I meant the fundamentals like number representation binary /decimal octal and hex the basics of SQL networks etc. Not the rote memorising of algorithms

by k__ 7y ago

smnrchrds 7y ago

> most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Could you please elaborate on this? What do they teach?

k__ 7y ago
A few of my friends learned trades like optometrist and cosmetician and never found a job.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.2% so it seems something’s working. Youth unemployment is also far lower in Germany than the European average, 7.6% rather than 23.5%, and unemployment among those who finished apprenticeship schemes rarely lasts longer than six months[1]. [1] Youth Unemployment After Apprenticeship Training and Individual, Occupation and Training Employer Characteristics http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf
  - k__ 7y ago
    Yes, the problem is, people learning optometrist, and then end up working in retail.

core-questions 7y ago

> IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality In Canada, I have found that while there's no official program for IT apprenticeship, the cultural value of implicit apprenticeship is there; perhaps an inheritance from our excellent trades programs. Thing is, you'll find it mostly in the older, more-local institutions; not so much in the sexier, flashier software companies and international conglomerates. When I started my career, fresh out of school, I worked at a small (~200 person) company. There was an IT greybeard (well, he seemed so to me, but he was only 40something). He taught me a lot, but more importantly like a good mentor he gave me room to grow, let me take on projects way beyond what any sane person would have given a 21 year old to work on, etc. The result was that I stuck around, contributed an awful lot of value, and then became eminently more employable than I had been. The next job at a much larger but still local institution had a real 60something greybeard that took this concept even further. Even now as I approach 40, there's a 50something guy at my current "senior" job who is just that much more "senior" and his wisdom is a continual benefit. It's obviously made me realize that I need to do the same thing to pay it forward. It doesn't strictly need to be an organized program where I get some co-op student, but that _can_ work; I've had some in the past to great success. What it does need to be is a keen younger person who has a learning style that benefits from personal interaction. That's really not everyone in our field; some people are simply self-starting learners and they bristle at mentorship. We should never constrain such people to "require" someone breathing down their neck, as it were; but for people who need the guidance, that have the talent and aptitude but benefit from someone else setting their focus, it is indispensable.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

You should be teaching fundamental CS/IT concepts not rote learning the latest JavaScript frontend frame work. Things like the TCP/IP stack and the OSI model, Types of programming languages, number theory (you can convert between decimal octal, hex and binary with out a calculator)

k__ 7y ago
This is what gets you a bunch of unemployable theorists.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  But the opposite extreme is what gets you a bunch of unmaintainable tech debt. As someone with a decent variety of experience, I value the concepts I know far far more than the individual languages and frameworks.
  - k__ 7y ago
    True, but you can teach SOLID with React. I think the technology isn't important, but how you teach.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  As this is for school kids 13-18 I meant the fundamentals like number representation binary /decimal octal and hex the basics of SQL networks etc. Not the rote memorising of algorithms