6 ms·

I didn't even mention the words "licensing" and "banning." If a house, a car, a shirt, or a phone is offered to you for sale, and you buy it, then you should o

by cs702 7y ago

I didn't even mention the words "licensing" and "banning." If a house, a car, a shirt, or a phone is offered to you for sale, and you buy it, then you should own it. FWIW, I agree with you. Please don't attack a straw-man!

bitbldr 7y ago
I think what previous comment was getting at is, most (all) of the time you buy a license to software, not the software itself
jasode 7y ago
>I didn't even mention the words "licensing" and "banning." Even if you don't mention them explicitly, you still have to acknowledge the difference because one of your examples was "software object". When consumers pay money for software, it almost always licensed and not bought. If you buy MS Windows 10 from Amazon.com, you purchased a license. If you truly want to "buy" Windows 10 in the same sense as your other non-software examples, you'd have to convince Microsoft to sell you the "ownership of the codebase" or have enough billions to acquire the entire Microsoft corporation to "own" Windows 10.
- jablan 7y ago
  Expecting to get a "codebase" when buying a software product would be the same as expecting getting blueprints for all the parts your car is made of. The concept of "buying a licence" is forced and by no means the only possible, if one wants to use a piece of software.
  - jasode 7y ago
    I wasn't saying that consumers "expect" the source code when they so-called "buy" the software. I'm explaining an example of what copyright law already _is_ so mentioning "software objects" is already getting into discussion of licenses even if you don't use explicitly use the word "license". There are 2 meanings: - "buy software" the legal ownership sense : as in buying the copyright which is usually something companies (not consumers) do when they buy the intellectual property rights. E.g. Adobe Inc buys Macromedia Dreamweaver. This is the true ownership. - "buy software" the casual sense : which just means the consumer getting a CD or a digital download to install a copy of the software. This the license not the ownership. They are 2 different things that use the same word "buy" and just because a commentary omits the word "license" doesn't mean the above distinctions go away. It's a similar distinction for many types of intellectual property. Photographers of weddings usually don't let couples buy the wedding photos in a legal ownership sense. Instead, they sell some prints with a license for use. Same with musicians selling "songs" to the public. People bought a license and not the copyright. Paul McCartney doesn't even "own" the songs he wrote with The Beatles. Thus, Paul McCartney can't do "anything he wants" with the song "Yesterday". He can't "resell the song" to somebody else like a used book. Instead, he has to ask for Sony's permission. Does anyone "force" couples to license photos instead of buy them? In one sense, no. The bride & groom could conceivably contract with a photographer on a "work for hire" basis and thus own the copyrights to the photos. But most couples don't do that. Newspapers and magazines do establish "work for hire" with freelance photographers so they can own the photographs but most wedding couples don't. As other commenters mentioned, the real issue is the slippery word "buy" that defies consumers' natural intuition of what that means. If you're really leasing/renting/licensing something, you need to make that clear.
mpol 7y ago
Please don't feel attacked. You mentioned buying a software product, but that is not commonly done by consumers. We all license software. Buying software means buying the copyright and become owner of it. The replies mention changing software copyright for consumer products. I can imagine that to be a good idea, but I don't see the EU making GPLv3 software mandatory for software products. I don't see a way forward yet.
- danShumway 7y ago
  What does the GPLv3 have to do with any of this? Copyleft-licensing software doesn't mean the original author gives up any of their own copyright privileges. How do you think dual licensing works? > Buying software means buying the copyright and become owner of it. No, when people use the word "buy" here, they're using it in the same way I might buy a physical book. When I buy a book, I'm free to write in it, scan it, transcribe it, rip it in half, reglue the spine, put a dust cover on it, or resell it. I'm not free to republish it or violate the author's copyright. When I buy a piece of software, I should be free to hotpatch the DLL, back up the product, put wrappers around it, examine it, write about it, or resell it. That doesn't mean the owner should lose their copyright. You're conflating two unrelated concepts -- the abolition of copyright and the erosion of basic consumer ownership rights that have been established for centuries. In fact, the EU already has a right to resale for digital software. And yet, despite that consumer-friendly rule, not every piece of software in the EU is currently GPLv3 licensed. All that people are saying is that our rights as consumers shouldn't go away just because we bought a digital book instead of a physical one.
- narag 7y ago
  In the context of software bundled with a device, the software should be considered accesory if the device needs it to be useful for its main purpose. Often software is used instead of a chip because it's cheaper, easier to correct mistakes, more flexible in general. But the hardware is sold, and so the accesory software should not be used as an excuse to apply the license model to physical products.

by cs702 7y ago

bitbldr 7y ago

I think what previous comment was getting at is, most (all) of the time you buy a license to software, not the software itself

jasode 7y ago

>I didn't even mention the words "licensing" and "banning." Even if you don't mention them explicitly, you still have to acknowledge the difference because one of your examples was "software object". When consumers pay money for software, it almost always licensed and not bought. If you buy MS Windows 10 from Amazon.com, you purchased a license. If you truly want to "buy" Windows 10 in the same sense as your other non-software examples, you'd have to convince Microsoft to sell you the "ownership of the codebase" or have enough billions to acquire the entire Microsoft corporation to "own" Windows 10.

jablan 7y ago
Expecting to get a "codebase" when buying a software product would be the same as expecting getting blueprints for all the parts your car is made of. The concept of "buying a licence" is forced and by no means the only possible, if one wants to use a piece of software.
- jasode 7y ago
  I wasn't saying that consumers "expect" the source code when they so-called "buy" the software. I'm explaining an example of what copyright law already _is_ so mentioning "software objects" is already getting into discussion of licenses even if you don't use explicitly use the word "license". There are 2 meanings: - "buy software" the legal ownership sense : as in buying the copyright which is usually something companies (not consumers) do when they buy the intellectual property rights. E.g. Adobe Inc buys Macromedia Dreamweaver. This is the true ownership. - "buy software" the casual sense : which just means the consumer getting a CD or a digital download to install a copy of the software. This the license not the ownership. They are 2 different things that use the same word "buy" and just because a commentary omits the word "license" doesn't mean the above distinctions go away. It's a similar distinction for many types of intellectual property. Photographers of weddings usually don't let couples buy the wedding photos in a legal ownership sense. Instead, they sell some prints with a license for use. Same with musicians selling "songs" to the public. People bought a license and not the copyright. Paul McCartney doesn't even "own" the songs he wrote with The Beatles. Thus, Paul McCartney can't do "anything he wants" with the song "Yesterday". He can't "resell the song" to somebody else like a used book. Instead, he has to ask for Sony's permission. Does anyone "force" couples to license photos instead of buy them? In one sense, no. The bride & groom could conceivably contract with a photographer on a "work for hire" basis and thus own the copyrights to the photos. But most couples don't do that. Newspapers and magazines do establish "work for hire" with freelance photographers so they can own the photographs but most wedding couples don't. As other commenters mentioned, the real issue is the slippery word "buy" that defies consumers' natural intuition of what that means. If you're really leasing/renting/licensing something, you need to make that clear.

mpol 7y ago

Please don't feel attacked. You mentioned buying a software product, but that is not commonly done by consumers. We all license software. Buying software means buying the copyright and become owner of it. The replies mention changing software copyright for consumer products. I can imagine that to be a good idea, but I don't see the EU making GPLv3 software mandatory for software products. I don't see a way forward yet.

danShumway 7y ago
What does the GPLv3 have to do with any of this? Copyleft-licensing software doesn't mean the original author gives up any of their own copyright privileges. How do you think dual licensing works? > Buying software means buying the copyright and become owner of it. No, when people use the word "buy" here, they're using it in the same way I might buy a physical book. When I buy a book, I'm free to write in it, scan it, transcribe it, rip it in half, reglue the spine, put a dust cover on it, or resell it. I'm not free to republish it or violate the author's copyright. When I buy a piece of software, I should be free to hotpatch the DLL, back up the product, put wrappers around it, examine it, write about it, or resell it. That doesn't mean the owner should lose their copyright. You're conflating two unrelated concepts -- the abolition of copyright and the erosion of basic consumer ownership rights that have been established for centuries. In fact, the EU already has a right to resale for digital software. And yet, despite that consumer-friendly rule, not every piece of software in the EU is currently GPLv3 licensed. All that people are saying is that our rights as consumers shouldn't go away just because we bought a digital book instead of a physical one.
narag 7y ago
In the context of software bundled with a device, the software should be considered accesory if the device needs it to be useful for its main purpose. Often software is used instead of a chip because it's cheaper, easier to correct mistakes, more flexible in general. But the hardware is sold, and so the accesory software should not be used as an excuse to apply the license model to physical products.