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> I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press re

> I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Maybe that was your objection?

TomMarius 7y ago
During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?
- simongray 7y ago
  > I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    > On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. Exactly, that is the only thing that is clear. And the reason is that we have much greater political problems to deal with so the EU is not that relevant to us, especially not issues like right to repair (which is not an issue to anyone I know and google gives me mostly no online discussions in our language). It still does not give anyone the right to shovel us "what the society wants". Our society didn't want the Lisboa agreement, but our politicians signed it anyways - so what exactly does our society want and what exactly should the EU be saying about it? Even if 100% of people voted, still the 2.85% of voice don't seem like much space to express what our society wants, you know? And why there should only be space for one central opinion? That doesn't seem that diverse.
    - simongray 7y ago
      > Our society didn't want the Lisboa agreement, but our politicians signed it anyways - so what exactly does our society want and what exactly should the EU be saying about it? Then vote for a different set of politicians and leave the EU. The UK paved the way. I believe in you! > Even if 100% of people voted, still the 2.85% of voice don't seem like much space to express what our society wants, you know? And why there should only be space for one central opinion? That doesn't seem that diverse. Humans aren't borgs, but that doesn't mean we can't generalise about the general tendencies of society. Do you want me to admit that not everyone in a society has the same opinion? Seems a bit pointless, but sure, I'll admit that.
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        > Then vote for a different set of politicians and leave the EU. The UK paved the way. I believe in you! That's nice of you. I am not a leaver, I believe in European cooperation, maybe even federalization - but I don't believe in centralization.

TomMarius 7y ago

During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?

simongray 7y ago
> I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  > On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. Exactly, that is the only thing that is clear. And the reason is that we have much greater political problems to deal with so the EU is not that relevant to us, especially not issues like right to repair (which is not an issue to anyone I know and google gives me mostly no online discussions in our language). It still does not give anyone the right to shovel us "what the society wants". Our society didn't want the Lisboa agreement, but our politicians signed it anyways - so what exactly does our society want and what exactly should the EU be saying about it? Even if 100% of people voted, still the 2.85% of voice don't seem like much space to express what our society wants, you know? And why there should only be space for one central opinion? That doesn't seem that diverse.
  - simongray 7y ago
    > Our society didn't want the Lisboa agreement, but our politicians signed it anyways - so what exactly does our society want and what exactly should the EU be saying about it? Then vote for a different set of politicians and leave the EU. The UK paved the way. I believe in you! > Even if 100% of people voted, still the 2.85% of voice don't seem like much space to express what our society wants, you know? And why there should only be space for one central opinion? That doesn't seem that diverse. Humans aren't borgs, but that doesn't mean we can't generalise about the general tendencies of society. Do you want me to admit that not everyone in a society has the same opinion? Seems a bit pointless, but sure, I'll admit that.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      > Then vote for a different set of politicians and leave the EU. The UK paved the way. I believe in you! That's nice of you. I am not a leaver, I believe in European cooperation, maybe even federalization - but I don't believe in centralization.