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I was not talking about hardened phones, quite the opposite, a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it - that's t

I was not talking about hardened phones, quite the opposite, a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it - that's the current direction of the market, which I like very much. Who exactly will I hurt with my phone, and when exactly is it going to gain around 1 metric ton and be hurtling down a highway? Since when is it fashionable to justify regulation with completely unrelated health/safety issues?

simion314 7y ago
E-waste is a problem that affect everyone. Also I edited my answer to add the DRM and copyright on the manuals issues.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  And how exactly does this change the fashion of buying the latest iPhone-looking phone every second year? The older devices are perfectly functioning, they just don't look like the owners wish. Most people I know have a drawer full of 100% working phones, some broken displays here and there but that is trivial to have repaired today.
  - simion314 7y ago
    Don't iPhone look very similar? why do people need a new one? There are probably many answers depending on person, some just want latest and greatest, some people were affected by the battery issue(while it was hidden from them), some people break the phone and don't have an Apple store near or don't have the time to wait for a repair and they get a new phone. Sometimes the updates make the old phones slow or incompatible and websites and applications are pushing you to buy a new one.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      Apparently they are different enough that people mod them to look like year-later models. Since these wouldn't have different capabilities it can only be for asthetics or social signaling.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      We're talking about Europe, iPhone is the minority here. Most phones are Androids, so no battery issue of iPhone is much relevant, same with Apple Stores. Any phone (including iPhone) can be taken to nearly any service shop and it will probably be repaired within a day for an affordable price (if they have all parts, which they can order no problem; tools are not a problem a tall). They also don't want the latest and greatest because that costs them way too much, most phones are mid market here, and the capabilities of these phones don't change much (same hardware for a number of years is not an exception) - but the design does. And no, the display notch is a very distinct status symbol that made the upgrade very much needed, same with multiple cameras on the back. The few people who are buying Apple can choose between Apple stores, official Apple resellers and also a huge selection of unofficial (called "post-warranty") service shops. Not sure if it's OK with Apple, but it's definitely legal here, and it doesn't seem like these people have any problems with getting parts, getting tools or repairing the phones, but I agree that there should be an official way of doing so. It's true that some phones became unusable with and because of software updates - that is wrong, but also an unrelated issue.
  - efdee 7y ago
    Most people you know have a drawer full of 100% working phones? I guess that suffices to conclude that you have an extremely a-typical social circle.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      But the point still stands - older phones are perfectly capable (and these phones are very repairable, too), just not beautiful enough. Some people having drawers of them signifies that even though these phones work, there is no demand for them.
rat9988 7y ago
As a society we have to make choices. We prefer having repairable items over beautiful unrepairable ones, as the latter has been abused as an excuse to deny repairability even when possible.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Do we? I am not really sure we do. I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants, and I know that it differs very much around 150 km to the north from me (where the border is) and that it is also roughly the opposite around 300 km to the south from me (where another border is).
  - simongray 7y ago
    > I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Maybe that was your objection?
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?
      - simongray 7y ago
        > I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.
playfool 7y ago
It was a metaphor for how things are wrong in the grand scheme of things even if they are possible and available. Repairability of things makes for less waste, if you ignore that fact and knowingly buy a phone which is going to end up in a bin after 2 years with no possibility to get proper recycling and repairing, you have a similar mindset to the SUV buying bunch. That is what he is trying to say (I think).
lm28469 7y ago
> a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-waste-ends-up-at-this-toxic-landfill-in-ghana https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Which country is that ? You can easily check recycling import/export per country online so that should be trivial to fact check. Pro tip: it doesn't look good for US/EU.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      It is not my fault what the state does with it after I correctly dispose it. I am not sure how that looks for my country and I mostly don't care - not my job to do, I (have to) pay taxes for that. https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plastic-recycling/r~i:article:618907/ https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plast... ;-)
      - lm28469 7y ago
        Your source date from 2008. Newer sources describe exactly what I'm talking about : https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caught-up-in-plastic-waste-disposal-crisis-in-europe https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caug... > I mostly don't care Yeah, I figured out that part. The good thing is that there are less and less people like you in this world.

simion314 7y ago

E-waste is a problem that affect everyone. Also I edited my answer to add the DRM and copyright on the manuals issues.

TomMarius 7y ago
And how exactly does this change the fashion of buying the latest iPhone-looking phone every second year? The older devices are perfectly functioning, they just don't look like the owners wish. Most people I know have a drawer full of 100% working phones, some broken displays here and there but that is trivial to have repaired today.
- simion314 7y ago
  Don't iPhone look very similar? why do people need a new one? There are probably many answers depending on person, some just want latest and greatest, some people were affected by the battery issue(while it was hidden from them), some people break the phone and don't have an Apple store near or don't have the time to wait for a repair and they get a new phone. Sometimes the updates make the old phones slow or incompatible and websites and applications are pushing you to buy a new one.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    Apparently they are different enough that people mod them to look like year-later models. Since these wouldn't have different capabilities it can only be for asthetics or social signaling.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    We're talking about Europe, iPhone is the minority here. Most phones are Androids, so no battery issue of iPhone is much relevant, same with Apple Stores. Any phone (including iPhone) can be taken to nearly any service shop and it will probably be repaired within a day for an affordable price (if they have all parts, which they can order no problem; tools are not a problem a tall). They also don't want the latest and greatest because that costs them way too much, most phones are mid market here, and the capabilities of these phones don't change much (same hardware for a number of years is not an exception) - but the design does. And no, the display notch is a very distinct status symbol that made the upgrade very much needed, same with multiple cameras on the back. The few people who are buying Apple can choose between Apple stores, official Apple resellers and also a huge selection of unofficial (called "post-warranty") service shops. Not sure if it's OK with Apple, but it's definitely legal here, and it doesn't seem like these people have any problems with getting parts, getting tools or repairing the phones, but I agree that there should be an official way of doing so. It's true that some phones became unusable with and because of software updates - that is wrong, but also an unrelated issue.
- efdee 7y ago
  Most people you know have a drawer full of 100% working phones? I guess that suffices to conclude that you have an extremely a-typical social circle.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    But the point still stands - older phones are perfectly capable (and these phones are very repairable, too), just not beautiful enough. Some people having drawers of them signifies that even though these phones work, there is no demand for them.

rat9988 7y ago

As a society we have to make choices. We prefer having repairable items over beautiful unrepairable ones, as the latter has been abused as an excuse to deny repairability even when possible.

TomMarius 7y ago
Do we? I am not really sure we do. I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants, and I know that it differs very much around 150 km to the north from me (where the border is) and that it is also roughly the opposite around 300 km to the south from me (where another border is).
- simongray 7y ago
  > I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Maybe that was your objection?
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?
    - simongray 7y ago
      > I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.

playfool 7y ago

It was a metaphor for how things are wrong in the grand scheme of things even if they are possible and available. Repairability of things makes for less waste, if you ignore that fact and knowingly buy a phone which is going to end up in a bin after 2 years with no possibility to get proper recycling and repairing, you have a similar mindset to the SUV buying bunch. That is what he is trying to say (I think).

lm28469 7y ago

> a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-waste-ends-up-at-this-toxic-landfill-in-ghana https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...

TomMarius 7y ago
Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.
- lm28469 7y ago
  Which country is that ? You can easily check recycling import/export per country online so that should be trivial to fact check. Pro tip: it doesn't look good for US/EU.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    It is not my fault what the state does with it after I correctly dispose it. I am not sure how that looks for my country and I mostly don't care - not my job to do, I (have to) pay taxes for that. https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plastic-recycling/r~i:article:618907/ https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plast... ;-)
    - lm28469 7y ago
      Your source date from 2008. Newer sources describe exactly what I'm talking about : https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caught-up-in-plastic-waste-disposal-crisis-in-europe https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caug... > I mostly don't care Yeah, I figured out that part. The good thing is that there are less and less people like you in this world.