5 ms·

Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistleblowers and government o

Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistleblowers and government openness.

Melting_Harps 7y ago
> Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistle-blowers and government openness. And Trump praised Wikileaks, and by extension Julian Assange, during his campaign and now [1] look at where things are? The sooner people realize the type of person drawn to politics is inherently the same (supposed party factions and names are irrelevant when looked at objectively and by outcome) and have ALL lied and manipulated to get to the position to do so, the better we will be as a Species and will hopefully lead to building viable alternatives. These people are the epitome of the narcissistic, sociopaths everyone rants running large corporations, except these are they type who will do and say anything to be elected: this is why I think seeing your Trumps or Berlusconi be elected would be useful if people were open to seeing it for it what truly is. Instead you get division and discord when we all intuitively realize that this is a myopic system that always leads to this inevitable outcome. Every politician is the same as Trump and Berlusconi, they just hide it better. If there was a time for this kind of Governance, and I grant you it may have been useful during initial colonization/Industrialization; it has since become clear with how this, environmental ecocide, financial/banking malfeasance, climate change, and now Corona Virus pandemics are handled that it HAS LONG exceed its last glimmer of utility. 1: https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us-assange-and-wikileaks/ar-BB10Z2Wl https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us-assange-and-wikileak...
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  > Every politician is the same as Trump and Berlusconi, they just hide it better. Citation effing needed. I would argue those are outliers of sociopaths that reached positions of power, they don't represent every head of state, let alone all elected public officials.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    Sure: The Clinton's are my favorite example, not least of which because I lived with a crazy kool-aid drinker who swore Hillary was the Messiah come back to save the Earth when she was a total crony: http://www.clintoncashbook.com/ http://www.clintoncashbook.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKqWHkg5xmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKqWHkg5xmc Obama has already showed himself to be an enabler for the Military Industry Complex as he expanded the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq (went in Yemen, Syria, Ukraine etc...) and went deeper on extra-judicial wars and rendition camps, then went deeper with the use of Drone Warfare, such that he was called the Drone King. Which makes sense because how did a formerly unknown Senator form IL become a 2-term president who seemingly eroded Citizen Rights? His war on whistle-blowers is already outlined. And was a Constitutional Scholar/Lawyer no less! Worth noting, Trump from a supposed contrasting party, expanded drone warfare even further [1]. Further solidifying my point(s). And Trump doubled down on not just drone war-fare and its secrecy, but also went further than Obama on prosecuting whistle-blowers [2]. I'd say something about the Bush dynasty but I think its very easy to see their alliances to the Saudi family and previously Nazi-sympathizers to build their wealth and eventually political clout. FYI: I'm an anarchist, and I don't have a political affiliation so I can scrutinize both 'parties' objectively and what is consistent (In the US) is that politicians always side with War and interventionism, and are often benefactors of some cronyism--they may decry it, but it happens. Dick Cheney is the like the poster-child of what these people embody. Those that fail to 'play the game' are often berated and marginalized and subject to unfair (often illegal) practices when they run for office as they will not participate in the order of things: eg Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders come to mind. I highly recommend Jermey Scahill's work. 1: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-do... 2: https://theintercept.com/2019/05/21/why-you-should-care-about-donald-trumps-war-on-whistleblowers/ https://theintercept.com/2019/05/21/why-you-should-care-abou...
    - JetSpiegel 7y ago
      > I highly recommend Jeremy Scahill's work. Seconded, I wasn't referring to Hillary "Jill Stein/Tulsi are Russian assets" Clinton. I'm not even American, so my interest on American politics is academic at best (eventually the trends trickle down to other countries). The US is ahead of the rest of the Global North in complete institutional breakdown. I just don't believe we should paint "politicians" with a broad brush. Most of them (like in all professions) are too ignorant to be evil, they just go with the flow. The the zeitgeist changes, they will change with it. I'm no anarchist, so I believe the zeitgeist can be changed, but that goes against entropy, you need to apply energy to keep it changed. It's not a one-shot revolution that does it. Life is too depressing otherwise...
dragonwriter 7y ago
Chelsea Manning is not a whistleblower, she's a person who felt (for good cause, I do not deny) mistreated by the military and indiscriminately leaked classified information in response. Her actions were neither motivated by nor tailored to revealing specific wrongdoing, nor were they either directed through the channels designed for reporting wrongdoing, nor did they avoid such channels because proper channels for reporting specific wrongdoing had been tried and failed, nor did they avoid proper channels because of specific grounded belief that reporting wrongdoing through those channels would be counterproductive. I understand the desire for a simple narrative where desirable results only come from morally pure actions and where in a conflict there is one side that is virtuous and one that is villainous, but in the Manning case I don't think any such simple narrative is possible without grossly distorting the facts. Manning was at best unduly stressed by active bigotry and most likely specifically mistreated prior to th leaks, and possibly psychologically unsuited for wartime military service even if the service itself wasn't actively bigoted. Manning did then indiscriminately leak sensitive defense information with the intent and reason to believe that it would cause harm to the US war effort. This did, however, include (but was by no means focussed on) information related to actual and apparent wrongdoing, especially actual and apparent war crimes, by US forces. Manning was subsequently, while in military custody, subjected to gross violations of her human rights and basic dignity not attached to any lawful conditions of pre-trial incarceration or post-conviction punishment.

Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistleblowers and government openness.

Melting_Harps 7y ago

> Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistle-blowers and government openness. And Trump praised Wikileaks, and by extension Julian Assange, during his campaign and now [1] look at where things are? The sooner people realize the type of person drawn to politics is inherently the same (supposed party factions and names are irrelevant when looked at objectively and by outcome) and have ALL lied and manipulated to get to the position to do so, the better we will be as a Species and will hopefully lead to building viable alternatives. These people are the epitome of the narcissistic, sociopaths everyone rants running large corporations, except these are they type who will do and say anything to be elected: this is why I think seeing your Trumps or Berlusconi be elected would be useful if people were open to seeing it for it what truly is. Instead you get division and discord when we all intuitively realize that this is a myopic system that always leads to this inevitable outcome. Every politician is the same as Trump and Berlusconi, they just hide it better. If there was a time for this kind of Governance, and I grant you it may have been useful during initial colonization/Industrialization; it has since become clear with how this, environmental ecocide, financial/banking malfeasance, climate change, and now Corona Virus pandemics are handled that it HAS LONG exceed its last glimmer of utility. 1: https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us-assange-and-wikileaks/ar-BB10Z2Wl https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us-assange-and-wikileak...

JetSpiegel 7y ago
> Every politician is the same as Trump and Berlusconi, they just hide it better. Citation effing needed. I would argue those are outliers of sociopaths that reached positions of power, they don't represent every head of state, let alone all elected public officials.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  Sure: The Clinton's are my favorite example, not least of which because I lived with a crazy kool-aid drinker who swore Hillary was the Messiah come back to save the Earth when she was a total crony: http://www.clintoncashbook.com/ http://www.clintoncashbook.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKqWHkg5xmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKqWHkg5xmc Obama has already showed himself to be an enabler for the Military Industry Complex as he expanded the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq (went in Yemen, Syria, Ukraine etc...) and went deeper on extra-judicial wars and rendition camps, then went deeper with the use of Drone Warfare, such that he was called the Drone King. Which makes sense because how did a formerly unknown Senator form IL become a 2-term president who seemingly eroded Citizen Rights? His war on whistle-blowers is already outlined. And was a Constitutional Scholar/Lawyer no less! Worth noting, Trump from a supposed contrasting party, expanded drone warfare even further [1]. Further solidifying my point(s). And Trump doubled down on not just drone war-fare and its secrecy, but also went further than Obama on prosecuting whistle-blowers [2]. I'd say something about the Bush dynasty but I think its very easy to see their alliances to the Saudi family and previously Nazi-sympathizers to build their wealth and eventually political clout. FYI: I'm an anarchist, and I don't have a political affiliation so I can scrutinize both 'parties' objectively and what is consistent (In the US) is that politicians always side with War and interventionism, and are often benefactors of some cronyism--they may decry it, but it happens. Dick Cheney is the like the poster-child of what these people embody. Those that fail to 'play the game' are often berated and marginalized and subject to unfair (often illegal) practices when they run for office as they will not participate in the order of things: eg Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders come to mind. I highly recommend Jermey Scahill's work. 1: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-do... 2: https://theintercept.com/2019/05/21/why-you-should-care-about-donald-trumps-war-on-whistleblowers/ https://theintercept.com/2019/05/21/why-you-should-care-abou...
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    > I highly recommend Jeremy Scahill's work. Seconded, I wasn't referring to Hillary "Jill Stein/Tulsi are Russian assets" Clinton. I'm not even American, so my interest on American politics is academic at best (eventually the trends trickle down to other countries). The US is ahead of the rest of the Global North in complete institutional breakdown. I just don't believe we should paint "politicians" with a broad brush. Most of them (like in all professions) are too ignorant to be evil, they just go with the flow. The the zeitgeist changes, they will change with it. I'm no anarchist, so I believe the zeitgeist can be changed, but that goes against entropy, you need to apply energy to keep it changed. It's not a one-shot revolution that does it. Life is too depressing otherwise...

dragonwriter 7y ago

Chelsea Manning is not a whistleblower, she's a person who felt (for good cause, I do not deny) mistreated by the military and indiscriminately leaked classified information in response. Her actions were neither motivated by nor tailored to revealing specific wrongdoing, nor were they either directed through the channels designed for reporting wrongdoing, nor did they avoid such channels because proper channels for reporting specific wrongdoing had been tried and failed, nor did they avoid proper channels because of specific grounded belief that reporting wrongdoing through those channels would be counterproductive. I understand the desire for a simple narrative where desirable results only come from morally pure actions and where in a conflict there is one side that is virtuous and one that is villainous, but in the Manning case I don't think any such simple narrative is possible without grossly distorting the facts. Manning was at best unduly stressed by active bigotry and most likely specifically mistreated prior to th leaks, and possibly psychologically unsuited for wartime military service even if the service itself wasn't actively bigoted. Manning did then indiscriminately leak sensitive defense information with the intent and reason to believe that it would cause harm to the US war effort. This did, however, include (but was by no means focussed on) information related to actual and apparent wrongdoing, especially actual and apparent war crimes, by US forces. Manning was subsequently, while in military custody, subjected to gross violations of her human rights and basic dignity not attached to any lawful conditions of pre-trial incarceration or post-conviction punishment.