7 ms·

Sort of off topic, but aside from addictive potential there is very little in the way of evidence that vaping is harmful. And it's been around for some 15 years

Sort of off topic, but aside from addictive potential there is very little in the way of evidence that vaping is harmful. And it's been around for some 15 years now - probably long enough to show some degree of long term harm. Similarly, nicotine is guilty by association, I've been unable to find any literature pointing harm from consumption. Now here's some speculation to take with a grain of salt - nicotine may offer a protective effect against 2019-ncov. We've known for a while that nicotine downregulates ACE2 receptors, and someone did an unofficial, but comprehensive meta review for SARS, MERS, and 2019-ncov and found that former and current smokers were significantly underrepresented among infected cases. Yes, it's a Reddit post, but the sources are all there and you can review and judge them for yourself.[1] 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/faluhv/an_exhaustive_lit_search_shows_that_only_585_sars/ https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/faluhv/an_exhausti...

TallGuyShort 7y ago
Interesting that infected cases were down. However of the infected cases, smoking is believed to be a major factor in the seriousness of the disease and potential for death (I don't know off-hand if that was based on data, or if it was humanity's best attempt at a reasonable understanding of a respiratory disease / general trait of pneumonia). So... yet another reason why vaping is great as long as it's primarily getting fewer people to smoke. But yes - a lot of the harm attributed to vaping is after-market / black-market oils, and it's silly for Juul to carry all that blame. I'm not a fan of nanny state-type laws anyway.
- wozniacki 7y ago
  a lot of the harm attributed to vaping is after-market / black-market oils Could you perhaps elaborate on these oils? Is there a list of safe, high-quality oils somewhere? Certified perhaps?
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    GP is referring to the fact that the recent widespread vaping illness was caused by illicit cannabis cartridges (in particular, one or more cutting agents used). I doubt there is anything like a certified list of safe products, but the recent scare is unrelated to products sold through legal distribution chains.
  - techbio 7y ago
    Vape liquid base is propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. Oils don't belong in vape juice at all. Black market "chemists" (thanks, drug war!) put Vitamin-E acetate in to stretch out the thing people wanted (THC), with the thing that killed several of them. Press and the Pres used the hysteria to ban the flavors people (not just teens) like.
  - stan_rogers 7y ago
    Specifically, the only confirmed correlations to any class of products were to THC cartridges using tocopheryl acetate (colloquially, Vitamin E acetate) as a diluant/cutting agent. That should never have happened in legitimate THC products, but it was pretty much guaranteed to happen with street and counterfeit carts. A similar sort of thing can happen with nicotine e-liquids if they're made with oil/lipid-based flavourings - stuff that people who don't know what they're doing might pick up from grocery, craft and health food stores. (Flavourings sold for vaping are water-soluble. That's not to say that all of them are as safe as they could be, particularly as it concerns saccharides, which can produce carcinogenic compounds when overheated/burned.) There have been a small handful of cases worldwide of idiopathic reactions to whatever was being vaped by the user; that's pretty much par for the course with anything that isn't pure air or water going into a human - somebody, somewhere is going to going to be hurt by something literally everybody else's body ignores.
  - beenBoutIT 7y ago
    Even if the vape juices were manufactured with only ACS grade chemicals free of impurities there isn't much meaningful data on the health impact of 'vaping' said chemicals. Vaping data won't be meaningful until there's a standardized vaping device made of non-reactive components (stainless steel, glass, PTFE, etc.) to use in clinical trials.
  - beloch 7y ago
    Black market goods aren't going to be certified by anyone you can trust, nor can you trust black market goods to contain what they claim to contain. People harming themselves with unsafe illegal goods is one of the costs of making certain substances illegal and taxing others so heavily that black market demand for them can thrive. Governments should weigh the harm done by black market goods against the benefits of substance control. Regulations and certifications don't necessarily make things safe, but they at least help protect people from things known to be dangerous. Put black market goods in your lungs at your own peril.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Buying your oil from a billion-dollar company is pretty safe. Buying it from a licensed and legal smoke shop, less safe. Buying from a sketchy dude out of his car or apartment very unsafe.
  - TallGuyShort 7y ago
    So I'm totally not a vaping expert, I just know that in every case that I read about of someone being hospitalized because of vaping, it was because of such oils. My understanding is that the "juices" these devices are designed for and most of the mainstream ones from the "official" sources are water-based fluids with a small amount of drug and flavoring added. I believe vaping oil is quite problematic, regardless of the source. No idea if "black market" oils have actually been adding bad things to the oils, or what. Like I said, not an expert myself.
  - WalterSear 7y ago
    It was two related companies in New York state, and both have been shut down.
taurath 7y ago
Physically harmful no. The mental harm from having a replacement reward system is if anything underdrawn.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  That sounds plausible. What exactly do you think this harm looks like?
Kiro 7y ago
Read the comments. Sounds like the study rather is a case against smoking. That's also what researchers think is causing men to be more severely affected in China.
andrepd 7y ago
>aside from addictive potential And this is already very harmful in itself, hooking the user (read, mostly young teenagers) into an addiction for life. It's the last thing on your mind when you go to sleep, and the first when you wake up. As soon as you put one out, the itch begins to rise until you have another. That's enslaving, it's a bad thing in itself. Not to mention the thousands of dollars per year you will sink on that.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  I agree, but to be fair, that's how a lot of us feel about coffee.
  - gpderetta 7y ago
    Coffee addiction wean off completely after a few days of abstinence though. And the side effects of abstinence are quite mild.
    - Jarwain 7y ago
      I always get the worst headaches whenever I'm withdrawing from caffeine. Withdrawing from nicotine is pretty minor in comparison. Mainly just cravings, and they subside after a week or so depending on how long I had been vaping
      - giggles_giggles 7y ago
        Are you joking? When I quit I had a month of full on panic attacks over the tiniest things, and I only vaped for 5 years. I don't understand the motive for downplaying the addictive potential of nicotine unless you're excusing your own habits to yourself. It's posts like yours that led me to think vaping "wasn't that bad" when I first got hooked. I feel like I got my life back when I finally quit and I never would've been able to do it at all without the endless support and patience of my wife.
        7y ago
URSpider94 7y ago
On the contrary, nicotine in and of itself is quite harmful. It’s debatable if it causes cancer, but it definitely contributes to lung and heart disease, among other things. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/
- ohyeshedid 7y ago
  Was just about to post this. Nicotine vapor seems to be better than smoking, assuming legit products, but nicotine is still poison. Consume a little too much nicotine, whether smoking or vaping; that sickish feeling can be the onset of nicotine poisoning. I've seen so many people stating basically the same as OP, claiming no data on vaping being harmful while completely ignoring the core substance that produces the addiction in the first place. I smoked a pack per day+ for 27 years, quit a few months back, still using low nicotine vape products when overstressed and struggling with urges. I'm not a vape hater, but I'm not ignorant to it being poison. It's always a good idea to have as much knowledge about your vices as possible.
  - swiley 7y ago
    I know I’m being pedantic but nicotine vapor would be above 247 c. I think you’re meaning to compare the pure aerosol and the smoke that comes from burning it.
  - MisterBastahrd 7y ago
    I am a cigar guy and have been for year. I also know what it's like when someone who doesn't smoke tries a strong cigar for the first time. I was once at my favorite cigar bar on Canal Street, talking with the owners as I usually did, when I saw some large men walk into the humidor. They were all WWE wrestlers. The owner asked me to go help em out, so I walked in with them and they asked me what was the strongest cigar they had. I paused and then asked them about their experience level with cigar smoking. All of them rarely ever smoked and for some it was a first time thing. One of the guys had recently "won" the world title and they wanted to celebrate his good fortune. I had to tell them that I wouldn't recommend the strongest to them, that's crazy if you haven't built a tolerance, and that if they felt nauseous, to stop smoking and eat something sweet. I instead pointed out a medium bodied, medium strength cigar and sent them on their way. About an hour later two of them were sitting at the bar eating butter mints out of a dish with their heads in their hands. Nicotine will mess you up.
alexggordon 7y ago
Just to clarify, because I was very confused--you mean that there is very little correlation between smoking and additional risk after contracting COVID-19, as your source is entirely dedicated to. There's significant risk to vaping, based on numerous studies. [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E-Cigarette-Toxicity-Tegin-Mekala/8cddc929797c29fe37226f48bdc4e6803ef62f5f https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E-Cigarette-Toxicity-T...
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  The abstract seems to say "we don't know, but we'd expect it's bad." Is that right?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- allovernow 7y ago
  >The inhaled aerosols of e-cigarettes contain numerous potential toxicities, some of which could be dangerous for health with long-term use. The safety of prolonged aerosol exposure is not known Could be. The jury is out.
  - rhizome 7y ago
    The safety of a lot of it is known, and it's safe. Propylene glycol has been used for concert smoke machines for 50 years. Vegetable glycerin is used for all kinds of things, internal and not. Please don't spread misinformation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507184/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507184/ http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC4487785&blobtype=pdf http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC44877...
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      The fog from fog machines has cooled down by the time you inhale it. How much does a concertgoer inhale vs. a vaper over a given span of time? Is there a risk of the heated product causing damage to the lungs that fog at ambient temperature does not? Can the ingredients, when combined and heated, chemically react to form hazardous compounds?
lowdose 7y ago
Juul made the product so the user experiences the same nicotine spike and addictive rush as normal cigarets give. Sounds pretty malicious to me because it introduces ambiguity into how healthy and addictive vaping is.
- monadic2 7y ago
  Yes. And it’s a real shame because if they offered lower nicotine percentages (1% and 0%) it could be a powerful prescribed treatment for nicotine addiction. Instead they just made a new market for exploitation.
- ohyeshedid 7y ago
  I believe it also contains more nicotine than tobacco products. To me, that's a bad way to start using nicotine; where do you go when you start out at peak dosage?
  - TylerE 7y ago
    Nonsense. Dose is titrated via usage. You don’t have to sit there and puff on a vape for 5 minutes straight like a cigarette.
    - ohyeshedid 7y ago
      How much nicotine is in a puff? How are you measuring a puff, and how are the individual users measuring a puff? My first several disposable vapes stated 300 puffs; it took me running out much faster than a pack of cigarettes to actually measure; my starting usage I got 101 puffs. How much nicotine was in each of those puffs?
dqpb 7y ago
You mean besides all those people that died from vaping?
- monadic2 7y ago
  They were vaping vitamin E from black market THC cartridges—not exactly what people refer to as “vaping”. The solution to that would be regulation of the market. My understanding is that the banning of flavored vape sales is mostly intended to cut consumption among teenagers & that it seems to have had the intended effect.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  You mean from black market THC oil which has nothing to do with nicotine vaping?
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
I've stopped vaping primarily because COVID-19 mortality rate risk grows exponentially if you smoke. Any type of lung inflammation (including wildfire particulates in my case) may increase your risk of mortality ten fold.
Nuzzerino 7y ago
You may want to reconsider relying on /r/COVID19 as a source of information. There's been a lot of criticism on how they are applying censorship, and no transparency around it. https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/f2jiyz/uclo_junkie_controls_all_coronavirus_related/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/f2jiyz/uclo_jun...

TallGuyShort 7y ago

Interesting that infected cases were down. However of the infected cases, smoking is believed to be a major factor in the seriousness of the disease and potential for death (I don't know off-hand if that was based on data, or if it was humanity's best attempt at a reasonable understanding of a respiratory disease / general trait of pneumonia). So... yet another reason why vaping is great as long as it's primarily getting fewer people to smoke. But yes - a lot of the harm attributed to vaping is after-market / black-market oils, and it's silly for Juul to carry all that blame. I'm not a fan of nanny state-type laws anyway.

wozniacki 7y ago
a lot of the harm attributed to vaping is after-market / black-market oils Could you perhaps elaborate on these oils? Is there a list of safe, high-quality oils somewhere? Certified perhaps?
- leetcrew 7y ago
  GP is referring to the fact that the recent widespread vaping illness was caused by illicit cannabis cartridges (in particular, one or more cutting agents used). I doubt there is anything like a certified list of safe products, but the recent scare is unrelated to products sold through legal distribution chains.
- techbio 7y ago
  Vape liquid base is propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. Oils don't belong in vape juice at all. Black market "chemists" (thanks, drug war!) put Vitamin-E acetate in to stretch out the thing people wanted (THC), with the thing that killed several of them. Press and the Pres used the hysteria to ban the flavors people (not just teens) like.
- stan_rogers 7y ago
  Specifically, the only confirmed correlations to any class of products were to THC cartridges using tocopheryl acetate (colloquially, Vitamin E acetate) as a diluant/cutting agent. That should never have happened in legitimate THC products, but it was pretty much guaranteed to happen with street and counterfeit carts. A similar sort of thing can happen with nicotine e-liquids if they're made with oil/lipid-based flavourings - stuff that people who don't know what they're doing might pick up from grocery, craft and health food stores. (Flavourings sold for vaping are water-soluble. That's not to say that all of them are as safe as they could be, particularly as it concerns saccharides, which can produce carcinogenic compounds when overheated/burned.) There have been a small handful of cases worldwide of idiopathic reactions to whatever was being vaped by the user; that's pretty much par for the course with anything that isn't pure air or water going into a human - somebody, somewhere is going to going to be hurt by something literally everybody else's body ignores.
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  Even if the vape juices were manufactured with only ACS grade chemicals free of impurities there isn't much meaningful data on the health impact of 'vaping' said chemicals. Vaping data won't be meaningful until there's a standardized vaping device made of non-reactive components (stainless steel, glass, PTFE, etc.) to use in clinical trials.
- beloch 7y ago
  Black market goods aren't going to be certified by anyone you can trust, nor can you trust black market goods to contain what they claim to contain. People harming themselves with unsafe illegal goods is one of the costs of making certain substances illegal and taxing others so heavily that black market demand for them can thrive. Governments should weigh the harm done by black market goods against the benefits of substance control. Regulations and certifications don't necessarily make things safe, but they at least help protect people from things known to be dangerous. Put black market goods in your lungs at your own peril.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Buying your oil from a billion-dollar company is pretty safe. Buying it from a licensed and legal smoke shop, less safe. Buying from a sketchy dude out of his car or apartment very unsafe.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  So I'm totally not a vaping expert, I just know that in every case that I read about of someone being hospitalized because of vaping, it was because of such oils. My understanding is that the "juices" these devices are designed for and most of the mainstream ones from the "official" sources are water-based fluids with a small amount of drug and flavoring added. I believe vaping oil is quite problematic, regardless of the source. No idea if "black market" oils have actually been adding bad things to the oils, or what. Like I said, not an expert myself.
- WalterSear 7y ago
  It was two related companies in New York state, and both have been shut down.

taurath 7y ago

Physically harmful no. The mental harm from having a replacement reward system is if anything underdrawn.

im3w1l 7y ago
That sounds plausible. What exactly do you think this harm looks like?

Kiro 7y ago

Read the comments. Sounds like the study rather is a case against smoking. That's also what researchers think is causing men to be more severely affected in China.

andrepd 7y ago

>aside from addictive potential And this is already very harmful in itself, hooking the user (read, mostly young teenagers) into an addiction for life. It's the last thing on your mind when you go to sleep, and the first when you wake up. As soon as you put one out, the itch begins to rise until you have another. That's enslaving, it's a bad thing in itself. Not to mention the thousands of dollars per year you will sink on that.

ceejayoz 7y ago
I agree, but to be fair, that's how a lot of us feel about coffee.
- gpderetta 7y ago
  Coffee addiction wean off completely after a few days of abstinence though. And the side effects of abstinence are quite mild.
  - Jarwain 7y ago
    I always get the worst headaches whenever I'm withdrawing from caffeine. Withdrawing from nicotine is pretty minor in comparison. Mainly just cravings, and they subside after a week or so depending on how long I had been vaping
    - giggles_giggles 7y ago
      Are you joking? When I quit I had a month of full on panic attacks over the tiniest things, and I only vaped for 5 years. I don't understand the motive for downplaying the addictive potential of nicotine unless you're excusing your own habits to yourself. It's posts like yours that led me to think vaping "wasn't that bad" when I first got hooked. I feel like I got my life back when I finally quit and I never would've been able to do it at all without the endless support and patience of my wife.
      - 7y ago

URSpider94 7y ago

On the contrary, nicotine in and of itself is quite harmful. It’s debatable if it causes cancer, but it definitely contributes to lung and heart disease, among other things. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

ohyeshedid 7y ago
Was just about to post this. Nicotine vapor seems to be better than smoking, assuming legit products, but nicotine is still poison. Consume a little too much nicotine, whether smoking or vaping; that sickish feeling can be the onset of nicotine poisoning. I've seen so many people stating basically the same as OP, claiming no data on vaping being harmful while completely ignoring the core substance that produces the addiction in the first place. I smoked a pack per day+ for 27 years, quit a few months back, still using low nicotine vape products when overstressed and struggling with urges. I'm not a vape hater, but I'm not ignorant to it being poison. It's always a good idea to have as much knowledge about your vices as possible.
- swiley 7y ago
  I know I’m being pedantic but nicotine vapor would be above 247 c. I think you’re meaning to compare the pure aerosol and the smoke that comes from burning it.
- MisterBastahrd 7y ago
  I am a cigar guy and have been for year. I also know what it's like when someone who doesn't smoke tries a strong cigar for the first time. I was once at my favorite cigar bar on Canal Street, talking with the owners as I usually did, when I saw some large men walk into the humidor. They were all WWE wrestlers. The owner asked me to go help em out, so I walked in with them and they asked me what was the strongest cigar they had. I paused and then asked them about their experience level with cigar smoking. All of them rarely ever smoked and for some it was a first time thing. One of the guys had recently "won" the world title and they wanted to celebrate his good fortune. I had to tell them that I wouldn't recommend the strongest to them, that's crazy if you haven't built a tolerance, and that if they felt nauseous, to stop smoking and eat something sweet. I instead pointed out a medium bodied, medium strength cigar and sent them on their way. About an hour later two of them were sitting at the bar eating butter mints out of a dish with their heads in their hands. Nicotine will mess you up.

alexggordon 7y ago

Just to clarify, because I was very confused--you mean that there is very little correlation between smoking and additional risk after contracting COVID-19, as your source is entirely dedicated to. There's significant risk to vaping, based on numerous studies. [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E-Cigarette-Toxicity-Tegin-Mekala/8cddc929797c29fe37226f48bdc4e6803ef62f5f https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E-Cigarette-Toxicity-T...

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
The abstract seems to say "we don't know, but we'd expect it's bad." Is that right?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
allovernow 7y ago
>The inhaled aerosols of e-cigarettes contain numerous potential toxicities, some of which could be dangerous for health with long-term use. The safety of prolonged aerosol exposure is not known Could be. The jury is out.
- rhizome 7y ago
  The safety of a lot of it is known, and it's safe. Propylene glycol has been used for concert smoke machines for 50 years. Vegetable glycerin is used for all kinds of things, internal and not. Please don't spread misinformation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507184/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507184/ http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC4487785&blobtype=pdf http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC44877...
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    The fog from fog machines has cooled down by the time you inhale it. How much does a concertgoer inhale vs. a vaper over a given span of time? Is there a risk of the heated product causing damage to the lungs that fog at ambient temperature does not? Can the ingredients, when combined and heated, chemically react to form hazardous compounds?

lowdose 7y ago

Juul made the product so the user experiences the same nicotine spike and addictive rush as normal cigarets give. Sounds pretty malicious to me because it introduces ambiguity into how healthy and addictive vaping is.

monadic2 7y ago
Yes. And it’s a real shame because if they offered lower nicotine percentages (1% and 0%) it could be a powerful prescribed treatment for nicotine addiction. Instead they just made a new market for exploitation.
ohyeshedid 7y ago
I believe it also contains more nicotine than tobacco products. To me, that's a bad way to start using nicotine; where do you go when you start out at peak dosage?
- TylerE 7y ago
  Nonsense. Dose is titrated via usage. You don’t have to sit there and puff on a vape for 5 minutes straight like a cigarette.
  - ohyeshedid 7y ago
    How much nicotine is in a puff? How are you measuring a puff, and how are the individual users measuring a puff? My first several disposable vapes stated 300 puffs; it took me running out much faster than a pack of cigarettes to actually measure; my starting usage I got 101 puffs. How much nicotine was in each of those puffs?

dqpb 7y ago

You mean besides all those people that died from vaping?

monadic2 7y ago
They were vaping vitamin E from black market THC cartridges—not exactly what people refer to as “vaping”. The solution to that would be regulation of the market. My understanding is that the banning of flavored vape sales is mostly intended to cut consumption among teenagers & that it seems to have had the intended effect.
EpicEng 7y ago
You mean from black market THC oil which has nothing to do with nicotine vaping?

0x8BADF00D 7y ago

I've stopped vaping primarily because COVID-19 mortality rate risk grows exponentially if you smoke. Any type of lung inflammation (including wildfire particulates in my case) may increase your risk of mortality ten fold.

Nuzzerino 7y ago

You may want to reconsider relying on /r/COVID19 as a source of information. There's been a lot of criticism on how they are applying censorship, and no transparency around it. https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/f2jiyz/uclo_junkie_controls_all_coronavirus_related/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/f2jiyz/uclo_jun...