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> "Let's step back and define nice. A nice person is one who tries to get you to like them" That's not my definition of nice, so I realized there was no point

by soneca 7y ago

> "Let's step back and define nice. A nice person is one who tries to get you to like them" That's not my definition of nice, so I realized there was no point in reading the rest of the text (if the clickbaity title wasn't enough of a hint already)

JohnFen 7y ago
The rest of the text isn't particularly valuable, in my opinion. Essentially, the author seems to believe that everyone is really a greedy ass who is trying to deceive you, and considers people who act nice to be particularly dastardly because they're trying to hide that they're a greedy ass. It's a dark view of humanity that, in my opinion, is not supportable.
- dumbfoundded 7y ago
  To clarify, I don't share that dark view of humanity. I just think we value the wrong things in business. You shouldn't value someone who is friendly. You should value decency in actions and general respectfulness. Nice is a red herring I observe greedy people using to land deals. More than anything, I wrote this for people to protect themselves.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    But in doing so, you are tarring a lot of people in business who are genuinely nice. You've set it out as a a bad thing, to be avoided. If your position is that "nice isn't sufficient", then I would agree entirely. If your position is that "nice is a red flag", then I could not disagree more. Singling out niceness as an indication of deception is a dark view of humanity. I would argue that the essay also has the potential of encouraging nice people to start faking meanness out of a fear that their niceness will make people think they're con artists.
    - dumbfoundded 7y ago
      In social contexts, I view niceness almost entirely as positive. In business contexts, I think you have to be much more paranoid. In business, if the goal is to make money (usually it is), you generally want to avoid niceties and get to the real questions like: is this other party honest, reliable, has a solid history in their relationships. I see it as a red flag when someone trying to sell something or make money off a relationship with me is focused on how much I like them personally. Salesmen, in particular, try to connect to customers on a personal level with the minimal effort required to do so. And then leverage the positive feelings into a sale. I believe this is unethical and a risk. Especially for people that consider themselves kind. In the context of business, I prefer someone who is upfront about how they plan to make money from or with me and then accurately explains the value or roi they provide. I also have more information about my business than the other person. Maybe I share something that makes the partnership a bad idea from a business standpoint. At this point, I respect people who walk away and stay in touch for when that relationship would make sense.
MrAlex94 7y ago
And then the article says: "But secret assholes pretend to be nice too." So it's being able to tell the difference between someone genuinely nice and someone pretending to be nice? I guess that's just life and comes with experience and time. I've known nice people who are also very sharp at business.
dumbfoundded 7y ago
How would you define nice?
- MrAlex94 7y ago
  Don't know if it's a British-ism or just me, but I would define it as someone who is pleasant.
- soneca 7y ago
  To use your own words, people who are "decent in actions and general respectfulness" would be a better phrasing. The way you define I would only consider nice those who are genuinely kind to me. If it's not genuine, they are not nice, just pretending to be nice. So, by (my) definition, I would trust nice people in business.
  - dumbfoundded 7y ago
    I think your definition is fair. I based mine on the dictionary.com definition which is pleasant, agreeable. I don't feel that these traits overlap with honesty, respect, and decency. There are positive traits that are easy and cheap and ones that are expensive and hard. Compliments are cheap and easy so I don't trust when people use them in the course of a sales conversation. Trust and respect are hard and expensive.
zozbot234 7y ago
> Let's step back and define nice. A nice person is one who tries to get you to like them That's how we define Nice(TM), and that attitude is generally quite transparent and not well-liked at all, at least in my experience. Whether that's also regarded as being 'nice' plain-and-simple, is actually going to differ quite a bit. Some people would call it nice; some wouldn't.

by soneca 7y ago

JohnFen 7y ago

The rest of the text isn't particularly valuable, in my opinion. Essentially, the author seems to believe that everyone is really a greedy ass who is trying to deceive you, and considers people who act nice to be particularly dastardly because they're trying to hide that they're a greedy ass. It's a dark view of humanity that, in my opinion, is not supportable.

dumbfoundded 7y ago
To clarify, I don't share that dark view of humanity. I just think we value the wrong things in business. You shouldn't value someone who is friendly. You should value decency in actions and general respectfulness. Nice is a red herring I observe greedy people using to land deals. More than anything, I wrote this for people to protect themselves.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  But in doing so, you are tarring a lot of people in business who are genuinely nice. You've set it out as a a bad thing, to be avoided. If your position is that "nice isn't sufficient", then I would agree entirely. If your position is that "nice is a red flag", then I could not disagree more. Singling out niceness as an indication of deception is a dark view of humanity. I would argue that the essay also has the potential of encouraging nice people to start faking meanness out of a fear that their niceness will make people think they're con artists.
  - dumbfoundded 7y ago
    In social contexts, I view niceness almost entirely as positive. In business contexts, I think you have to be much more paranoid. In business, if the goal is to make money (usually it is), you generally want to avoid niceties and get to the real questions like: is this other party honest, reliable, has a solid history in their relationships. I see it as a red flag when someone trying to sell something or make money off a relationship with me is focused on how much I like them personally. Salesmen, in particular, try to connect to customers on a personal level with the minimal effort required to do so. And then leverage the positive feelings into a sale. I believe this is unethical and a risk. Especially for people that consider themselves kind. In the context of business, I prefer someone who is upfront about how they plan to make money from or with me and then accurately explains the value or roi they provide. I also have more information about my business than the other person. Maybe I share something that makes the partnership a bad idea from a business standpoint. At this point, I respect people who walk away and stay in touch for when that relationship would make sense.

MrAlex94 7y ago

And then the article says: "But secret assholes pretend to be nice too." So it's being able to tell the difference between someone genuinely nice and someone pretending to be nice? I guess that's just life and comes with experience and time. I've known nice people who are also very sharp at business.

dumbfoundded 7y ago

How would you define nice?

MrAlex94 7y ago
Don't know if it's a British-ism or just me, but I would define it as someone who is pleasant.
soneca 7y ago
To use your own words, people who are "decent in actions and general respectfulness" would be a better phrasing. The way you define I would only consider nice those who are genuinely kind to me. If it's not genuine, they are not nice, just pretending to be nice. So, by (my) definition, I would trust nice people in business.
- dumbfoundded 7y ago
  I think your definition is fair. I based mine on the dictionary.com definition which is pleasant, agreeable. I don't feel that these traits overlap with honesty, respect, and decency. There are positive traits that are easy and cheap and ones that are expensive and hard. Compliments are cheap and easy so I don't trust when people use them in the course of a sales conversation. Trust and respect are hard and expensive.

zozbot234 7y ago

> Let's step back and define nice. A nice person is one who tries to get you to like them That's how we define Nice(TM), and that attitude is generally quite transparent and not well-liked at all, at least in my experience. Whether that's also regarded as being 'nice' plain-and-simple, is actually going to differ quite a bit. Some people would call it nice; some wouldn't.