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because bitcoin is not money, it is an asset, it is a property that can be traded for money but its value fluctuates and is not tied to anything other than peop

because bitcoin is not money, it is an asset, it is a property that can be traded for money but its value fluctuates and is not tied to anything other than people's perceived future value in it (which can be valuable, don't get me wrong there, all I am saying that it will change all the time)

lawn 7y ago
What should be considered money is subjective and the value of all money comes from people's perceived future value in it. Even gold coins and dollar notes.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  there's a fairly objective definition of a currency. it's a store of value and it's a means of transaction. Bitcoin is not really a means of transaction except for illegal ones where people are willing to accept the high fees. Also, there is a clear difference in underlying value. Bitcoins value is entirely speculative. The US dollars value is guaranteed by the US government, which in turn is underpinned by real economic assets of the American economy and its firms and so on. Which are very much real and not imaginary.
  - lawn 7y ago
    No, that's not the definition of a currency. Money has different functions, where store of value, unit of account and medium of exchange are the popular ones. And they have different properties, such as acceptable, fungible, durable and divisible and others (properties also differ.) The big point is that these are subjective, and exists on a scale, and they vary from community to community. Cigarettes can be considered a currency in some prisons for example. > Bitcoin is not really a means of transaction except for illegal ones where people are willing to accept the high fees. I never mentioned Bitcoin. There are many other cryptocurrencies with low fees. And I've bought VPNs, VPS, domains and computers with them, purchases that are completely legal. > The US dollars value is guaranteed by the US government The dollar will only hold value as people believe that the government can manage the dollar correctly, so my statement still holds. There's nothing intrinsically valuable with a dollar note.
    - Barrin92 7y ago
      >so my statement still holds. No, it doesn't because not every form of belief is equally justified. If you believe your currency has value because the Aztec god of fertility has bestowed value upon it then you'll have a problem when you figure it that not everyone agrees. The American government and the American economy underpinning the dollar however represent vital goods and services as well as security provided and have an army to back it up so the chance that it magically loses all its value is just about nil. A mistaken assumption, common among crypto folks for very obvious reasons is that just because a system is the result of social consensus, all such systems are of equal status and equally risky. This is not so.
      - lawn 7y ago
        Well, as long as everyone else in the community also believes in the Aztec God, the money will hold value. That there are different confidence levels in our beliefs doesn't refute my point that it's fundamentally about collective beliefs. I do agree that the chance that the dollar loses all it's value is about nil.
      - sparkie 7y ago
        > The American government and the American economy underpinning the dollar however represent vital goods and services as well as security provided and have an army to back it up so the chance that it magically loses all its value is just about nil. It doesn't need to lose all of its value at once. It just needs to lose some value frequently enough that some people decide "hold on a minute, this is an unjust tax I'm facing on my savings," and will look for an alternative where they are not taxed so heavily.
        Barrin92 7y ago
        everybody already understands that the dollar is subject to long term inflation which is why people put their money into stocks or pension funds and don't put cash under the mattress for 80 years. The predictable change in the value of the dollar is priced in and desirable for many macro-economic reasons and irrelevant to consumers. As far as the dollar value is concerned you care if the milk and the orange juice cost roughly as much this month as they do next month, there is this weird crypto and gold obsession with long sterm steady value that's not relevant at all for fiat currency.
  - SuoDuanDao 7y ago
    This 'illegal ones' canard again. Unregulated=/=Illegal.

lawn 7y ago

What should be considered money is subjective and the value of all money comes from people's perceived future value in it. Even gold coins and dollar notes.

Barrin92 7y ago
there's a fairly objective definition of a currency. it's a store of value and it's a means of transaction. Bitcoin is not really a means of transaction except for illegal ones where people are willing to accept the high fees. Also, there is a clear difference in underlying value. Bitcoins value is entirely speculative. The US dollars value is guaranteed by the US government, which in turn is underpinned by real economic assets of the American economy and its firms and so on. Which are very much real and not imaginary.
- lawn 7y ago
  No, that's not the definition of a currency. Money has different functions, where store of value, unit of account and medium of exchange are the popular ones. And they have different properties, such as acceptable, fungible, durable and divisible and others (properties also differ.) The big point is that these are subjective, and exists on a scale, and they vary from community to community. Cigarettes can be considered a currency in some prisons for example. > Bitcoin is not really a means of transaction except for illegal ones where people are willing to accept the high fees. I never mentioned Bitcoin. There are many other cryptocurrencies with low fees. And I've bought VPNs, VPS, domains and computers with them, purchases that are completely legal. > The US dollars value is guaranteed by the US government The dollar will only hold value as people believe that the government can manage the dollar correctly, so my statement still holds. There's nothing intrinsically valuable with a dollar note.
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    >so my statement still holds. No, it doesn't because not every form of belief is equally justified. If you believe your currency has value because the Aztec god of fertility has bestowed value upon it then you'll have a problem when you figure it that not everyone agrees. The American government and the American economy underpinning the dollar however represent vital goods and services as well as security provided and have an army to back it up so the chance that it magically loses all its value is just about nil. A mistaken assumption, common among crypto folks for very obvious reasons is that just because a system is the result of social consensus, all such systems are of equal status and equally risky. This is not so.
    - lawn 7y ago
      Well, as long as everyone else in the community also believes in the Aztec God, the money will hold value. That there are different confidence levels in our beliefs doesn't refute my point that it's fundamentally about collective beliefs. I do agree that the chance that the dollar loses all it's value is about nil.
    - sparkie 7y ago
      > The American government and the American economy underpinning the dollar however represent vital goods and services as well as security provided and have an army to back it up so the chance that it magically loses all its value is just about nil. It doesn't need to lose all of its value at once. It just needs to lose some value frequently enough that some people decide "hold on a minute, this is an unjust tax I'm facing on my savings," and will look for an alternative where they are not taxed so heavily.
      - Barrin92 7y ago
        everybody already understands that the dollar is subject to long term inflation which is why people put their money into stocks or pension funds and don't put cash under the mattress for 80 years. The predictable change in the value of the dollar is priced in and desirable for many macro-economic reasons and irrelevant to consumers. As far as the dollar value is concerned you care if the milk and the orange juice cost roughly as much this month as they do next month, there is this weird crypto and gold obsession with long sterm steady value that's not relevant at all for fiat currency.
- SuoDuanDao 7y ago
  This 'illegal ones' canard again. Unregulated=/=Illegal.